From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Fri Nov 21 2003 - 12:51:08 GMT
Mark
I asked: Which is it? Always static or truth changes?
Mark 21-11-03: Hello Mati, I have suggested that Truth is a static
product of a Dynamic Artistic Intellectual process. So, all other
realities are artistic creations of the intellect.
Mati: Not to be too picky, but values Dynamic & Artistic follow the same
"edge". "Intellectual Process" is a likely a static value system. I
understand how intellect has the capacity to identify realities both
subjective and objective.
Mark 21a-11-03: Hello Mati, We must remember that DQ is all pervading and
driving evolution. As our static intellectual patterns resonate with each other
(SQ-SQ tension), DQ has the opportunity to step in and transform (DQ-SQ tension
- evolution). So, there are two things going on here and we have to be
careful when we discuss this that we don't wander over from one to the other into
confusion?
If you think about it, YOU have the ability to CHOOSE which patterns you want
to sow (SQ-SQ tension), like a farmer sowing seed, in order for DQ to get to
work on them and see what happens. When the patterns grow they can grow in
response to harmony and Quality (DQ-SQ evolution). But you can only sow the best
seed if you know what it is in the first place, and that discovery is made in
response to Quality. Our Intellect grows towards a 'sweet spot' of
understanding, and that route we must find for ourselves. I am trying to help you in my
own way, but you must respond in kind? :) Read The edge of chaos please?
"Dynamic Artistic Intellectual process" would
suggest that there is a "Dynamic Artistic Social process" as well.
Mark 21a-11-03: I agree. Yes, indeed. The best Social patterns would have an
aesthetic of harmony and beauty. Well said Mati.
But! Look here! Look what we have Mati? The SAME thing that gives static
intellectual patterns their value and beauty and elegance is the SAME thing that
gives social patterns their value and beauty and elegance - A coherent
relationship with DQ. This argument destroys SoM. :-)
Also
why not "Dynamic Truth Intellectual process"? Intellect is a static
pattern in which DQ pervades it. I think you are suggesting that
intellect can pervade DQ which doesn't seem possible. You also talk
about process, what would that process look like and how would it work?
Mark 21a-11-03: The edge of chaos spells that out. Well, that is to say, i
tried.
The thing is, Truth, which is an Intellectual pattern of value, moves and
changes in response to DQ. So, i can see what you are reaching towards when you
say that Truth evolves as an intellectual process in response to DQ. I agree
with you there Mati. But Truth is not the be all and end all of our static
intellectual repertoire. We can say that Truth is a creation of the artistic
intellectual process, which makes Truth a species of the Good. In the end, any given
Truth survives because it is beautiful and of value. We know this because
those who excel in such discoveries always report the sense of beauty and
elegance as indicators that they 'feel' an idea is right before it is confirmed.
Poincare indicates this as reported by Pirsig in ZMM.
Mark:
Have you ever thought about your favourite film, Lawrence of Arabia in
MoQ terms? It strikes me that there may be some insights lurking in
there!
Mati: I did watch the film in the terms of MOQ. But we have to be
careful about the "Artistic" liberties, and reality of that time.
However some of the social patterns were interesting enough. Insights
for me were getting pretty complicated at one point and decided to just
watch the film. Then there are times to just loose yourself in the film
which is the most dynamic and fun of all. :)
Mark 21-11-03. I think i know what you mean? You got involved in David
Lean's Dynamic!?!!!!! ;) He is a great director.
Mati: I was afraid you were going to ask. I was thinking about a lot of
things. I tend to look for values and value systems. There competing
social values of the British and Arabs. There was in the internal
struggle of trying to reconcile those values. There was the
"intellectual" struggle of Lawrence's identities being British and the
newness of the Arabic culture as it was redefining his identity. There
was the struggle of what were his identity and those identities of the
cultures that claimed him. Then there was the Artistic value of the
film verses historic value of the real man. It's a great story but what
was the value in the name of truth. Etc. When I say "loose yourself" I
think it is self explanatory but only to say that it is the process of
allowing the movie to become your reality as an observer. When the movie
is over it's back to reality of the lives we lead.
Mati
Mark 21a-11-03: My word. There is so much going on here. One film, and a
Universe of value. I wish one day you do something along these lines because the
forum can only benefit from such enquiry.
All the best,
Mark
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Nov 21 2003 - 12:53:02 GMT