From: Mati Palm-Leis (mpalm@merr.com)
Date: Mon Dec 01 2003 - 03:15:37 GMT
David and all,
David, thanks for taking the time to create a line of thinking on this
topic.
Two thoughts came to mind as I went through it.
First you wrote: So a long period of social and cultural evolution is
required before anything like genuine Democracy. By analogy, the
neo-cons think they can turn a 10 year old boy into a 50 year old man
over night simply by holding a gun to his head and demanding that he
"grow up right now!"
Mati: I agree with your analogy, but I think it raises an important
question about what the intellectual levels is. I believe that you were
alluding to the point that "intellect" in our human capacity is
developmental in its nature and its ability to latch on to it as a value
system or level. In literal terms of the intellectual level the ten year
Iraqi old boy would not have the capacity to intellectually to
understand democracy from his cultural point of reference. And
literally the 50 year old Iraqi would have the difficulty to learning to
understand the meaning of democracy. (The old dog, new trick issue) So
the question is how to define intellect as a developmental process?
What needs to be taught to create "intellect"? And of course our
favorite question what is intellectual level?
Second: I tend not to be partisan in my political thinking, though I can
be fairly liberal as a whole in my thinking process. I thought your
comment "This is why his comparison of Hitler and Bush is so compelling"
was a bit of a stretch in my mind. Sure we can question some the social
values and perhaps an intellectual value or two that Bush leads by, but
as a whole it doesn't make him a Fascist. There is the Political Yoke
that forces him to be accountable politically and democratically. To be
honest this really is new historical ground in that we have invaded a
nation to in the final analysis to democratize in the name of
geo-political stability (Yes, I know the party line is WMD, is the
reason we went in. Saddam created a living ghost, WMD, which became a
dangerous reality after 9/11. And this is a legitimate threat whether
real or a ghost), We did this after WWII through the occupation of
Germany and Japan. But culturally on the social level and intellectually
level there seemed to be more to work with. A work that took several
years, I think it took better than 20 years, to accomplish. Iraq
represents a new ball game in that respect because I don't think there
will be 20 years to make happen. Then there is the issue of whether it
is right for us to try to instill a democracy in this nation? I think
it would take 20 years to find out but politics and history don't
provide the rational to stay in the game that long, even if it were for
the right reason.
DMB: I think attitude exactly mirrors what is happening right now before
our
eyes. The current administration sold the war in Iraq on the premise
that
there was an imminent threat, that Iraq was poised to kill millions of
Americans and those who dared to question or criticize were painted as
not
only unpatriotic, but as people who "hate" America, as giving aid and
comfort to the enemy. .....
Mati: This tends to be, in my mind, somewhat of an unfair generalization
that happened on both sides of the fences. I am interested what the
middle of the road has to say. They represent the Political Keel that
keeps democracy afloat socially and intellectually and keeps it from
tipping over into the abyss.
DMB:
Be afraid. Be very afraid. And if you don't vote for the Democrat next
fall,
you're obviously unpatriotic and hate America. ;-) Thanks again for your
time, dear reader.
Mati: To vote based on fear is not a "quality vote". Vote based on
"intellectual" informed understanding of the issues and what it means to
our society is far better. However if DMB is right, then you would
surely vote Republican, if Bush and the Republicans made the mess then
let them clean it up.... or if historically this was really the right
move then give them the credit. We would learn an interesting lesson
either way. ;)
Take care
Mati
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Dec 01 2003 - 03:16:34 GMT