From: Erin N. (enoonan@kent.edu)
Date: Sun Dec 21 2003 - 02:25:30 GMT
Platt,
There are bits of this I may agree with but why
make it Judeo-Christian capitalism and not just
capitalism. Do you have a quote suggesting these two must go together. Would
you also like to change the title to God and the art of motorcyle of maintence
too to complete your theory? So Pirsig sees value in Christianity and
capitalism
and therefore wa-la its Judeo-Christian capitalism.
I am curious to know what percentage of Western Europe
is Judeo-Christian now, anybody have the stats?
I also don't like you implying that negative comments about
Bush are negative comments about capitalism.
It may surprise you that Tom Robbins also said in
his recent novel a line about capitalism taken to extreme is anarchy and
socialism taken to extreme is totalitarianism.
Hmmm I know this will upset you but I see similarities
between what you are saying and what Robbins said (and Pirsig says too of
course).
There was a whole thread about overdoing the dynamic before
and it seemed like it was strongly agreed that you can overdo it.
Let me ask you this first do you think that you
can take capitalism too far?
If its really about a balance of DQ and SQ it seems
like both systems could have negative results if they are taken
to extreme and neither guarantees a balance of DQ and
SQ.
You want quotes about the morality of this war on terrorism
but thats another generalization that I don't really like.
So every country Bush now decides to invade is lumped under
a single moral war. The threat of Osama is not
exactly like the threat of Saddam and the threat of
Saddam is not like (insert the next country Bush invades).
Erin
>===== Original Message From moq_discuss@moq.org =====
>Hi All,
>
>Looking at the world today one sees three forces of value engaged in a
>titanic struggle.They are radical Islam, Western European secular
>socialism, and American Judeo-Christian capitalism.
>
>On this site we haven't radical Islam's ideology expressed, due in part I
>imagine to the language barrier. But, there can be little doubt that MD
>participants come down on one side or the other in clash between secular
>socialism and Judeo-Christian capitalism.
>
>Those on the secular socialist side rightly appeal to Pirsig's placement
>of the intellectual level higher than the social level whose static
>religious patterns are antithetical to the morally superior rule of
>objectivity and reason. Those on the capitalist side rightly appeal to
>Pirsig's identification of Dynamic Quality as the highest good of all, but
>whose creative power and drive towards freedom goes unrecognized by the
>intellectual level.
>
>In Pirsigian terms, the war on terrorism is a moral war--intellectual
>level vs. a static social level Islamic fundamentalism that uses the
>biological behavior of physical attack to attain its goals. "Intellectuals
>must find biological behavior, no matter what its ethnic connection, and
>limit or destroy destructive biological patterns with complete moral
>ruthlessness, the way a doctor destroys germs, before those biological
>patterns destroy civilization itself." (Lila, chp. 24) Further, Pirsig
>writes to Anthony McWatt, "Destroying an inferior culture is better than
>allowing that inferior culture to become a threat."
>
>Is there anyone reading this who disagrees with moral rightness of the war
>on terrorism as morality is defined in the MOQ? If so, direct quotes from
>Pirsig's works will be needed to refute. Emotional responses based on
>personal dislike of the U.S. or Bush for alleged "arrogance" or "bullying"
>won't cut it. Of course, you can always try to show the MOQ to be wrong-
>headed, but that is a tall order because you will have to explain the
>existence of values somehow.
>
>The moral status of Western European secular socialism vs. U.S. Judeo-
>Christian capitalism is, as pointed out above, not so cut and dried in the
>MOQ moral hierarchy. Certainly Pirsig has low opinion of the moral status
>of the religiosity of Christian fundamentalists, although he laments the
>loss of the Judeo-Christian values of " . . . their optimism, their belief
>in the future, their codes of craftsmanship and labor and thrift and self-
>discipline that really built twentieth-century America. Since the
>Victorians disappeared the entire drift of this century has been toward a
>dissipation of these values." (Lila, chp. 17) Also, Pirsig is unwilling to
>shelve religious experience completely, saying, "The Metaphysics of
>Quality identifies religious mysticism with Dynamic Quality." (Lila, chp.
>30)
>
>It is Pirsig's recognition of the "mystic" throughout the MOQ that argues
>most strongly in behalf of my belief that the MOQ rejects European
>secularism socialism Further, the fact that Pirsig ties mysticism to DQ,
>and socialism to the absence of DQ, strongly suggests he favors the
>openness and freedom of the U.S. capitalist system. Again, those who
>object to my analysis will should use quotes from Pirsig instead of
>repeating party propaganda.
>
>Finally, there's a marvelous similarity in a line from the MOQ and a line
>in America's Declaration of Independence. From the MOQ we read, "From the
>baby's point of view, something, he knows not what, compels attention.
>This generalized "something," Whitehead's "dim apprehension," is Dynamic
>Quality." (Lila, chp. 9) From the Declaration we read, "We hold these
>truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are
>endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these
>are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
>
>We're born free, created by DQ so we can experience DQ as life, liberty
>and the pursuit of happiness. It's my belief that DQ has also created in
>us a sense of beauty to guide our pursuit of happiness.
>
>Unless Western European secular socialism can somehow recognize and
>account for mystic DQ, it seems to me their moral status leaves something
>to be desired if one accepts the premises of the MOQ.
>
>Platt
>
>
>
>
>
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