From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Sat Dec 27 2003 - 18:20:22 GMT
Platt and Everyone
On 19 Dec. you wrote:
> Looking at the world today one sees three forces of value engaged in a
> titanic struggle.They are radical Islam, Western European secular
> socialism, and American Judeo-Christian capitalism.
These quiet days gave me a chance to delve on this post of yours.
Normally I feel a little uneasy with political issues ..economical
ones too, but you seek the quality view and that is irresistible.
> On this site we haven't radical Islam's ideology expressed, due in part I
> imagine to the language barrier.
There have been Muslims on this site, but not the radical kind
maybe.
> But, there can be little doubt that MD
> participants come down on one side or the other in clash between secular
> socialism and Judeo-Christian capitalism.
Judeo-Christian capitalism? It's commonly accepted that Marx was
inspired by early Christendom's policy of contributing according to
ability and receiving according to need. But from the following I
understand that you mean Victorian Morality.
> Those on the secular socialist side rightly appeal to Pirsig's placement
> of the intellectual level higher than the social level whose static
> religious patterns are antithetical to the morally superior rule of
> objectivity and reason.
I guess I have just done so.
Those on the capitalist side rightly appeal to
> Pirsig's identification of Dynamic Quality as the highest good of all, but
> whose creative power and drive towards freedom goes unrecognized by the
> intellectual level.
The ...DQ goes unrecognized by the intellectual level ...part I
agree with. The DQ only occurs in the MOQ so accordingly the
MOQ is no intellectual pattern.
> In Pirsigian terms, the war on terrorism is a moral war--intellectual
> level vs. a static social level Islamic fundamentalism that uses the
> biological behavior of physical attack to attain its goals. "Intellectuals
> must find biological behavior, no matter what its ethnic connection, and
> limit or destroy destructive biological patterns with complete moral
> ruthlessness, the way a doctor destroys germs, before those biological
> patterns destroy civilization itself." (Lila, chp. 24) Further, Pirsig
> writes to Anthony McWatt, "Destroying an inferior culture is better than
> allowing that inferior culture to become a threat."
Agree!
> Is there anyone reading this who disagrees with moral rightness of the war
> on terrorism as morality is defined in the MOQ?
I agree - principally - but in our shrinking world the West can't avoid
imposing its "license" everywhere and this is regarded as
undermining traditional values ...something it is. Still, how Bin
Laden and his lieutenants see their cause helped by terror is a
mystery.
> If so, direct quotes from
> Pirsig's works will be needed to refute. Emotional responses based on
> personal dislike of the U.S. or Bush for alleged "arrogance" or "bullying"
> won't cut it. Of course, you can always try to show the MOQ to be wrong-
> headed, but that is a tall order because you will have to explain the
> existence of values somehow.
> The moral status of Western European secular socialism vs. U.S. Judeo-
> Christian capitalism is, as pointed out above, not so cut and dried in the
> MOQ moral hierarchy. Certainly Pirsig has low opinion of the moral status
> of the religiosity of Christian fundamentalists, although he laments the
> loss of the Judeo-Christian values of " . . . their optimism, their belief
> in the future, their codes of craftsmanship and labor and thrift and self-
> discipline that really built twentieth-century America. Since the
> Victorians disappeared the entire drift of this century has been toward a
> dissipation of these values." (Lila, chp. 17) Also, Pirsig is unwilling to
> shelve religious experience completely, saying, "The Metaphysics of
> Quality identifies religious mysticism with Dynamic Quality." (Lila, chp.
> 30)
The reason that the MOQ doesn't shelve religion is religion as
representative of social value. I have mentioned this before but may
repeat (all IMO). The MOQ is beyond intellect thus intellect is its
primary "targetl" and the my-enemy's-enemy-is-my-friend
mechanism kicks in (so well described in LILA as intellect's
"courting" of biology) The MOQ will "court" society, but his is from
no real sympathy for traditional religions just a reflex.
> It is Pirsig's recognition of the "mystic" throughout the MOQ that argues
> most strongly in behalf of my belief that the MOQ rejects European
> secularism socialism
Right the MOQ's "natural born enemy" is intellect
> Further, the fact that Pirsig ties mysticism to DQ,
As said: DQ exist only in the MOQ thus the MOQ itself is a
"mysticism", hence its sympathy with Buddhism.
> and socialism to the absence of DQ,
OK ;-)
> strongly suggests he favors the
> openness and freedom of the U.S. capitalist system.
Objections! This is the said alliance with social value (Victorian
morality)
> Again, those who
> object to my analysis will should use quotes from Pirsig instead of
> repeating party propaganda.
I only have the intellect-bio. alliance described in LILA, but I draw
conclusions.
> Finally, there's a marvelous similarity in a line from the MOQ and a line
> in America's Declaration of Independence. From the MOQ we read, "From the
> baby's point of view, something, he knows not what, compels attention.
> This generalized "something," Whitehead's "dim apprehension," is Dynamic
> Quality." (Lila, chp. 9) From the Declaration we read, "We hold these
> truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are
> endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these
> are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
If anything is intellect-value-based, the American DoI is, based as it
is on the Enlightenment ideas.
> We're born free, created by DQ so we can experience DQ as life, liberty
> and the pursuit of happiness. It's my belief that DQ has also created in
> us a sense of beauty to guide our pursuit of happiness.
The American DoI is all about about individual freedom; in the
greater MOQ context intellect's independence from society. That
this was perceived as "dynamic" and "beautiful" in its time is no
wonder. All level's liberation from their parent was driven by a sense
of value of beauty - that's MOQ's whole point.
> Unless Western European secular socialism can somehow recognize and
> account for mystic DQ, it seems to me their moral status leaves something
> to be desired if one accepts the premises of the MOQ.
IMO both socialism and capitalism - theories conceived as
intellect was about to conquer the scene in Europe - are
intellectual patterns. The latter maybe more economically dynamic,
but how long since is it that USA was the raw capitalist country?
Its welfare and social security arrangements as well developed as
in any European state. Russia may be more the "robber baron"
heaven of old.
Sincerely
Bo
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