From: Johannes Volmert (jvolmert@student.uni-kassel.de)
Date: Tue Jan 13 2004 - 22:15:42 GMT
Hello Paul, Bo and all MoQ-Discussers,
now I begin to see, where Bo's understanding of the MoQ and it's
derivations differs from mine (and seemingly many others). I had never
really understood, what excactly he means with his SOLAQI-concept. I and
many others have had lots of arguments about his concept in the past ( I
have reread yesterday parts of the discussion I had with Bo during that
time in June of 2000 and later - 'Define the intellectual level', Fri
16. Jun; 'Archaeology about dimension', 5. Dec ). In Bo's opinion it is
impossible for the intellectual level as described by Pirsig, to
accommodate more than one system of thinking. He views it to be
exclusive, a 'closed party' so to say. It is therefore correct for him
to conclude, that if SO-division holds the place of the intellectual
level, the MoQ has got to be placed in the/a following level.
Bo, your conclusion would be right - if your premises were. But apart
from some logical reasons that contradicts them, Pirsig himself says
expressis verbis, that [...] theMetaphysics of Quality does not insist
on a single exclusive truth[...] (Lila, page 114, paperback - see also
below). The MoQ is "only" an expansion of modern western thought and not
a complete replacement of it. Besides there are some other systems of
thinking - metaphysics - that compete with the MoQ, or are themselves
part of the MoQ-basework (indian, asian). Yet they have to be asserted
to the intellectual level. The main reason for me to refute your
SOLAQI-concept was, that I could not see the MoQ being anything else but
a pattern of intellectual value itself. It is of a very high rank, no
doubt, but nevertheless still an intellectual pattern.
Just guessing, I suppose that it was Pirsig himself, who partly induced
this problem when using his 'box'-analogy, where he stated:
"[... ] Whacko science. They were trying to lift themselves by their
bootstraps. You can't have Box "A" contain within itself Box "B," which
in turn contains Box "A." That's whacko. Yet here's a "science" which
contains "man" [...] (Lila, page 62, paperback edition).
In fact, we have then the logical problem, that Box A (MoQ) contains Box
B (intellectual level as described by Pirsig), which in turn contains
Box A again. While I find Pirsigs analogy in the given quote not very
convincing, I don't see any severe problem in that sort of recursivity
(spelling?) in this case. When thinking about thinking, this recursivity
almost always occurs. I don't see any necessity to dwell on this problem
any further and also I'm too lazy to so, by now.
Alas, if not only Paul but even Pirsig himself fails to convince you,
Bo, I don't see anything or anybody can do it.
Regards, JoVo
PS to Paul: I'm a great admirer of you writings. Surely belonging to the
best of what has been contributed to this site
Ref.:
Pirsig (Lila, page 114, paperback edition):
"This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is to
trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist on
a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be the
ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
things—that which corresponds to the "objective" world—and all other
constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
truths to exist. Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth." One seeks
instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of things with the
knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future this explanation
must be taken provisionally; as useful until something better comes along."
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