From: Paul Turner (paulj.turner@ntlworld.com)
Date: Mon Jan 26 2004 - 13:49:46 GMT
Bo, Mati
> Mati said:
> This statement is based on a sensibility that does not require faith
> but rather the capacity to see SOM and how it works.
> Paul:
> I'm not sure what faith has to do with it, but if by SOM you mean the
> belief that reality is reducible to either matter or to mind or to
> some combination of the two, then I think I have the capacity to see
> SOM and how it works.
Bo said:
S/O as a metaphysics does NOT work
Paul:
??? Ok, thanks for that Bo. I was just repeating Mati's phrasing, read
the post again.
> Paul previously said:
> Agreed. The MOQ retains and resolves the S/O divide as the distinction
> between inorganic-biological patterns and social-intellectual
> patterns.
Bo said:
This way of integrating the S/O works up to the point of objects and
subjects, but in subjectivity/objectivity combinations it fails.
Paul:
It doesn't fail, but it does cock up your interpretation.
Paul quoted Pirsig:
> "The Metaphysics of Quality resolves the relationship between
> intellect and society, subject and object, mind and matter, by
> embedding all of them in a larger system of understanding.
Bo said:
Yes, it is supposed to do this but the said way of tucking SOM in under
itself does not work very well, while the SOL-intellect does.
Paul:
Bo delivers another knock-down argument.
Paul quoted Pirsig:
> Objects are
> inorganic and biological values; subjects are social and intellectual
> values. They are not two mysterious universes that go floating around
> in some subject-object dream that allows them no real contact with one
> another.
Bo said:
Are biological value OBJECTS?
Paul:
It's better to say that objects are inorganic and/or biological patterns
of value.
Bo said:
And social value SUBJECTS?
Paul:
It's better to say that subjects are social and/or intellectual patterns
of value.
Bo said:
Maybe one may say objective and subjective, but then MOQ's static
hierarchy itself is S/O-divided.
Paul:
Correct. They are different levels of static quality.
Bo said:
But of course this is the resistance against the SOL - you can't drop
the SOMMMMM!
Paul:
Of course (???)
> Paul previously:
> Or it was the new capacity of intellect, the capacity for abstract
> thought, which enabled man to see himself as never before. I argue
> that it was not that SOM enabled intellect but that it was intellect
> that enabled SOM.
Bo said:
"New capacity for abstract thought" and "..see himself as never before".
Right but that is to postulate a subject different from the objective
..what he thinks about. It need not be objective in the "stone and
table" sense (people of old knew the difference between self and other,
animals too for that matter) At first it was the search for "immortal
principles" for "what was imperishable ...etc." but the S/O developed
and as SOM. But there was no "intellect" that developed into this
...lest we end up in this impossible "thinking" mire. it's is the
intellectual value level itself.
Paul:
What is the "impossible thinking mire"?
> Paul previously said:
> Agreed. The intellectual structure of the MOQ incorporates the reality
> of value which does not fit into the category of subject or object. In
> the MOQ subject and object fit into the category of value.
Bo said:
"MOQ's intellectual structure"!? The whole MOQ incorporates the reality
of value. It IS a value structure.
Paul:
Yes. The "whole MOQ" is a static intellectual pattern of values.
Bo said:
This nonsense about intellect as ideas about the world where everything
has its origin in a somish to the core and plays straight into the Matt
Rorty hands.
Paul:
The MOQ says that everything has its origin in value, including ideas.
When have I ever said that intellect/ideas are the origin of everything?
Paul
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