From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Wed Feb 11 2004 - 19:49:09 GMT
Hi Bo
see notes below:
> David M. and MD.
>
> Sorry for the delay, on 5 Feb. you responded to my query why the
> Social-Intellectual transition is regarded as a "fall".
>
> > I find the fall and rise mythos useful
> > in many schemes of analysis. Cosmologically
> > I assume that the ultimate beginining is some
> > kind of whole/Onesness/Nothingness. The creation
> > of finite existence is a sort of fall into materiality,
>
> OK, I follow you here. This is the emergence of the inorganic
> realm ...of the
MOQ.-------------------------------------------------------------YES
>
> > more and more
> > SQ until we reach complex molecules all their association with
> > deterministic causality. From there thinks march upwards again to
> > greater wholeness and more DQ and less SQ.
>
> And this is the biological realm and the development within it?
> You call it more DQ and less SQ (more biological dynamism)
> something I agree with, the trend is toward less stability, which
> eventually leads to a dynamism so great that it spawns the next
>
evel. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
-AGREED
>
> > Within the human level I
> > see SO divide as a retracing of this cosmic story, dividing whole
> > quality experience into a SO divide where we discover objects as
> > causally determined and utterly other to our subjectivity.
>
> There isn't any "human level" so I'm not sure where you are now,
> maybe at the Social, but if you see this as the scene of the
> subject/object divide (in the metaphysical sense) I find it too
> soon. Even if Pirsig says that "social" means the human kind,
> there is an immense chasm between the Neanderthal societies
> and the great cultures at the beginning of historical times (still
> "social" according to Pirsig) Throughout this stage the S/O was
> absent.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------WELL
THIS IS MY OWN THING,
BUT OBVIOUSLY THE SOCIAL AND INTELLECTUAL LEVELS ARE HUMAN IN A SENSE.
OBVIOUSLY THE NOTION OF SO DIVIDE IS INTELLECTUAL BUT VIA THIS DIVIDE WE
CAN START TO COMPREHEND THE EXISTENCE OF THE ONTOLOGICAL LEVELS THAT
LEAD TO HUMAN EVOLUTION AND THE SOCIAL AND INTELLECTUAL LEVELS THAT IN TURN
LEAD TO SO DIVIDE & INTELLECT AS YOU WOULD SAY. SORT OF CIRCULAR BUT IS
CLEARLY THE
HISTORICAL REALITY OF WHAT HAS TO OCCUR BEFORE CONSCIOUS HUMAN LEVEL DOES.
I AGREE THAT HUMANS BEGIN AS SOCIAL IN A WAY CLOSE TO ANIMAL GROUPS WITH
INSTINCT
AND THEN WITH EARLY LANGUAGE AND MYTHS AND THEN FINALLY WITH INTELLECT SO
DIVIDE AND THE FULL IMPACT OF THIS ON SOCIETY BOTH IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING
AND TECHNOLOGY. BUT I SEE THE SO DIVIDE AS LESS OF AN EVENT AND MORE AS A
CONTINUUM
THAN YOU DO. THE MOVE FROM INSTINCT TO MYTH AND FROM MYSTIC PARTICIPATION TO
DISENCHANTMENT IS ALL A MOVE TOWARDS SO DIVIDE. LATER COMES SO METAPHYSICS.
IN FACT I SEE ALL THE LEVELS AS CONTAINING MORE EVOLUTION THAN PIRSIG
SUGGESTS. AND THIS EVOLUTION CONTAINS BOTH ALIENATION AND REPPROACHMENT
PHASES.
> Anyway, it was the "fall" aspect we were discussing. At the
> Neanderthal times language was absent thus the Bio-Social
> transition wouldn't have been recorded "mentally". Still, even if
> we don't regard language a Q-level change, it must have spelt a
> major shift*) in the "us different from the animals" sense, and that
> may have been perceived like a loss of innocence. Maybe this is
> the Biblical fall?
-------------------------------------------YES CONTINUOUS EVOLUTION IN THE
LEVELS,
AND ALWAYS MOVING FROM OR TO GREATER DIFFERENTIATION AND EVENTUALLY
INDIVIDUALITY, CLEARLY TH SO DIVIDE IS ALIENATING AND LIKE A FALL, ONCE WE
SAW OUR SPIRIT IN THE TREES AND ANIMALS AND GOD SPOKE TO US DIRECTLY
>
> *)
> I do regard language the social "carbon" that brought about
> Intellect, and in that sense I agree with Pirsig about "symbol
> manipulation", but his is like saying that inorganic carbon IS life.
>
-------------------------------------HARD TO DRAW THE LINE BETWEEN WHAT IS
NEEDED FOR LANGUAGE TO EMERGE AND WHAT EMERGES BECAUSE OF LANGAUGE
> > From this
> > alienated position
>
> Now we/you are at the intellectual level, no? And this is the S/O
> divide itself (in my opinion), and from here the transition from the
> previous social era is regard as another loss, like in ZMM where
> Social value [Aretê] seems to be Quality itself, while Intellect
> [SOM] is a "prison".
>
> > we can try putting things back together again so we
> > go both beyond the SO divide and return to a pre-alienated and more
> > holistic conception, an example of which is MOQ.
>
> Yes, MOQ is a "reunion", but to be so it must be something
> beyond the intellectual level ...ah, this may not be your great
> interest ;-).
------------------------------------------------YES I THINK THAT THE SORT OF
REUNION SUGGESTED BY THE MOQ TRANSFORMS INTELLECT AND REINTEGRATES IT WITH
THE COSMOS THAT THE SO DIVIDE
TRIES TO STEP OUT OF, OR RATHER THE REUNION IS WITHIN THE HUMAN SELF, WHERE
WE FIND AN EXPLANATION OF THE ACHIEVEMENT OF THE COSMOS THAT LIES AROUND US,
IN ALL ITS DYNAMIC AND STATIC GLORY
>
> > See Arthur M Young's
> > Reflexive Universe for a larger version of this scheme. Young suggest
> > a number of falling (into SQ) levels of the inorganic before you hit
> > the DQ driven levels (rising) of the organic: plants/animals/man.
>
> Interesting! Also thanks for the comment to what you found good
> in Paul's post. I agree that he is a clear thinker and a excellent
> writer, but it is the MOQ we are discussing? Also that we tend to
> comment too many points, but it's hard to say stop.
>
> IMO
> Bo
>
>
>
>
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