From: Paul Turner (paulj.turner@ntlworld.com)
Date: Mon Feb 16 2004 - 09:26:35 GMT
Hello David
DMB said:
Since, in the MOQ, DQ is associated so closely with religious mysticism,
it can't rightly be called an atheistic system.
Paul:
Okay, is "non-theistic system" any better? In Pirsig's words (from Ant's
Textbook)
"Quality can be equated with God, but I don't like to do so. 'God', to
most people, is a set of static intellectual and social patterns. Only
true religious mystics can correctly equate God with Dynamic Quality. In
the West, particularly around universities, these people are quite rare.
The others who go around saying 'God wants this,' or 'God will answer
your prayers,' are, according to the Metaphysics of Quality, engaging in
a minor form of evil. Such statements are a lower form of evolution,
intellectual patterns, attempting to contain a higher one." [Pirsig,
1994]
DMB said:
Pirsig in Lila chapter 30:
"He thought about how once this integration occurs and DQ is identified
with religious mysticism it produces an avalanche of information as to
what Dynamic Quality is. A lot of this religious mysticism is just
low-grade "yelping about God" of course, but if you search for the
sources of it and don't take the yelps too literally a lot of
interesting things turn up."
Paul:
I agree, but again, if Dynamic Quality is to be equated with God, I
think it is important to realise that it is not the supreme being of
many theistic traditions.
"The idea that God can hear one's prayers can be meaningful only if one
assumes that God is a social and intellectual entity. The Buddhist
"nothingness" does not listen to prayers. It has no discernible social
or intellectual existence. Dynamic Quality also does not listen to
prayers. It also has no discernible social or intellectual existence. If
one considers the Bible to be the center of the Christian faith then it
is evident that the Christian faith is dominantly social. Attention is
sometimes drawn to various mystical statements in the Bible, but the
fact that attention has to be drawn to them indicates how rare they are.
Read any book of the Bible and count the number of lines classifiable as
mystic, the number classifiable as intellectual, and the number
classifiable as social. Then read the Tao Te Ching or the Buddhist
sutras or the Bhagavad Gita and do the same. Compare the results and I
think you will come to the conclusion that Christianity is dominantly
social and intellectual whereas these Eastern religions are dominantly
mystic." [Pirsig, 2000]
dmb continues:
Further, this connection between mysticism and Quality can even be
traced back to prehistoric, preintellectual times. One of Paul's recent
favourites points out that Quality is the generator of social level
myths as well as intellectual philosophical descriptions.
"Dialectic, which is the parent of logic, came itself from rhetoric.
Rhetoric is in turn the child of the myths and poetry of ancient Greece.
That is so historically, and that is so by any application of common
sense. The poetry and the myths are the response of a prehistoric people
to the universe around them made on the basis of Quality. It is Quality,
not dialectic, which is the generator of everything we know." [ZMMp.391]
dmb adds:
And this series of quotes adds to this picture. I think it shows that,
contrary to the standard readings, there has always been a spiritual
quest within the Western philosophical traditon. And it seems to me that
one of the central themes in Pirsig's work is to uncover and recover
this hidden aspect.
Check it out and tell me if you see what I mean...
Paul:
Thanks for the quotes. I do see what you mean, and I think one could
find a thread of mysticism in literature, art and even science reaching
all the way back, but I think "spiritual" often carries misleading
connotations, it suggests something supernatural. Quality can be found
in a well-tuned engine as well as at the top of a mountain.
Regards
Paul
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Feb 16 2004 - 09:27:41 GMT