From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Wed Mar 03 2004 - 12:29:04 GMT
Poot,
> Platt quoted: There's nothing vague about a value judgment. .When a voter
> goes to the
> polling booth he's making a value Judgment. What's so vague about that?
> Isn't an election a cultural activity? What's so vague about the New York
> stock exchanges? Aren't values what they're dealing in? How about the U.S.
> Treasury? Who in this world is more specific than the Internal Revenue
> Service?" (Lila, Chp.5)
>
> Poot: Ok. What I am / was trying to say, is that if money is the
> value-determiner, then Quality falls by the wayside (most often). I don't
> see how this quote would disagree with that. If I am missing something,
> please, fill me in.
"And Phaedrus knew something about values. Before he had gone up into the
mountains he had written a whole book on values. Quality. Quality was
value. They were the same thing." (Lila, Chp 5)
> Every business is there to make profit. Not just to provide a product.
>
> But That is where the difference lies. Some companies only exist to make
> profit, no matter what quality the product is that they're producing. And
> some others, make better quality products, and are satisfied with lower
> profit ratios. How fast is H.H.Brown growing? Well, it isn't, really.
> It's been in the same spot for a long time, and the owners seem to be
> content with that. Then you have other large companies, which actively
> seek to destroy their competition by any means possible. They only seek
> profits. More money in the pockets of fewer people. Do you think that if
> Nike is doing really well, they're employees see lots of wage / benefits
> increases? no..... Then where does that money go? To the CEO 's nice
> lofty XX million dollar bonus. What do people need with that much money?
> They have it, and someone else needs it.
Need is not a legitimate claim. There's not a mouthful of food not needed
by someone somewhere.
> This is why when money is the determining factor of Quality or Value
> Judgement, things go awry. You lose focus on what matters , and focus on
> 'making a good living'.
If focusing on making a good living makes one happy, what's the problem?
> Platt: How would you define "true success?" What criteria do you use?
>
> Poot: True Success is derived from the aim for Arete. Are you happy with
> what you have? Or are you happy with what you have to be happy with?
>
> In terms of professions, it amazes me that most people are not happy with
> what they do (work). Many say, "well, I have to work.....damn" , only to
> look forward to coming home, and sitting on a couch to watch T.V. THIS is
> what they have to look forward to? This is how dull theyre jobs are?
>
> Instead of money being the value determiner, how about Quality? Doens't
> matter whether its the quality of what you make, what you buy, eat,
> drink.... Quality of life is what matters. If you do what you like to do,
> what makes you happy, than you will do it better, and with more care than
> something which bores you, or you hate , or are disinterested in.
What I hear you saying is success is measured by one's happiness.
> I see it everyday at work. People, who are grumpy all of the time.....I've
> been in situations, where people have told me...."You know.....I wish I
> could have done things different......you know? I knew I shouldn't have
> gone into this career. I should have gone into business or something like
> that." The specific result of this unhappiness, is reduction/ lack of
> effort , which results in the degredation of Quality.
Donald Trump looks mighty happy.
> Platt: Please define WE. Does it include Bush and his millions of
> supporters? Or
> just those who agree with you?
> Poot: Well, not being an American citizen, I have no say in politics in
> America. But , by 'We', I would mean both the majority, and people of my
> view (are you not so close in awareness and to me........yet our views
> still differ greatly on secular issues). Just because Bush has millions
> of supporters , doesnt mean they're right. If you look at it by support, by
> sheer numbers, he didn't win the election. Democracy? or dangling chads?
You said it. Sheer numbers doesn't mean they're right.
> Poot: Are you satisfied with crap? I think what we have here, is crap...
> It may be my view, and the view of many, but its not just view. Can you
> distinguish between what is crap, and what is good ----for society? Yes.
Yes. What is good for society is individual freedom and responsibility,
not government handouts.
> PIRSIG: "The ideal of a harmonious society in which everyone without coercion
> cooperates happily with everyone else for the mutual good of all is a
> devastating fiction." (Lila, Chp 24)
> Poot: Neither I or DM (I should let you speak for yourself ;-) are trying
> to say that 'We' (being human race, or at least in a country) will all get
> along, holding hands, singing songs. There will ALWAYS be conflicts.
>
> The only difference is how we choose to solve them.
>
> I am not saying (and I do not believe that I have said it) that there will
> not need to be any coercion. In fact, I have said the opposite!
I read DM as saying he wants to rid the world of conflicts. You say that's
impossible. Seems there's a conflict between your views. :-)
Platt
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Mar 03 2004 - 12:46:39 GMT