From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Thu Mar 18 2004 - 12:55:30 GMT
Leland Jory wrote:
> I have incessant arguments with my mother
> over Pirsigian philosophy. Her immune system simply will not accept the
> concept that (for instance) substance can be said to be made of static
> patterns of inorganic value. It simply goes in one ear and out the other.
> Unfortunately, now that she has heard me say that, whenever the subject of
> the MOQ comes up, she has the same reaction John Sullivan had when
> motorcycle maintenance was brought up. She really tries to understand, but
> her eyes invariably glaze over part way in and the subject gets changed.
My definition of a hopeless task is trying to explain the MOQ to someone
who 1) hasn't read Pirsig's books and 2) doesn't care about philosophy in
the first place. I've tried on occasion to say that when you feel there's
something that would be good for you to do, like bake a cake for a
birthday party, you are responding to DQ, a vague sense that it would be
better to bake a cake than not to. That's the dynamic part of Quality.
Once baked and put on the table, the cake becomes an example of static
Quality. But, such examples usually fall on deaf ears because, as you say,
the idea that objects like cakes are patterns of morality seems so far out
as to be utterly absurd.
P previously:
> >No argument there. But, there are many social patterns besides static
> >religious ones. The most important in the U.S. is our Constitution which
> >guarantees individual rights to free speech, trial by jury, etc. This is
> >the key social pattern that supports the intellectual level. Of course,
> >it's under attack by socialists who think the collective should always
> >take precedence over individual rights. The spread of laws against so-
> >called "hate speech" is a case in point.
L:
> The thing is, there is no more inherent value in secular q-social
> patterns than there is in religious q-social patterns.
According to the MOQ there's more inherent value in intellectual-based
patterns than faith-based patterns.
> Your much-vaunted
> constitution also guarantees the "Right to Bear Arms" which, arguably, is a
> major player in the number of gun deaths in the US.
One of Hitler's first moves when he took power was to make possession of
arms by citizens illegal. Dictators never want to see their citizens
exercising self-defense.
> I wonder, how do you feel about "hate speech"? Do you condone it? Do you
> value the incitement of violence against certain groups? If not, then you
> can probably see at least a little value in laws prohibiting it. Consider,
> you'll never get the hate groups to voluntarily stop writing the crap that
> they do, so the only recourse is through the existing q-social system (i.e.
> the legal system) to curb it. Just as they have a right to free speech, so
> have the members of the groups being attacked the right to not have to hear
> it.
The problem is: Who defines hate speech? It's a slippery slope that can
lead easily to government censorship of one's political views considered
by some bureaucrat or judge to be "not in the public interest." Also, the
"right not to hear" is a new one on me. Is that in the UN charter? :-)
> >Absolutely. You must be familiar with David Gelernter's book 'Machine
> >Beauty.' He argues, and I agree, that both computer hardware and software
> >could use a strong infusion of "art."
> Actually, I've never read it (but plan to, now). As for computer
> hardware and software needing an infusion of art, as a Mac user I
> already have Quality in my computer. ;^{)>
Absolutely. Mac is light years ahead of the competition in Quality. One
look at a Mac computer next to, say, a Dell, is enough to show the
difference. It's a wonderful example of how beauty and Quality go
together. Mom may not think much about computers, but she tries to make a
beautiful cake. :-)
Platt
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Mar 18 2004 - 12:55:28 GMT