From: drose (donangel@nlci.com)
Date: Fri Mar 19 2004 - 01:27:53 GMT
> 'Begging pardon, but politics plays a role in every group;-)'
(sigh) Apparently my attempts at humor don't translate particularly well,
or they really are lame. Oh, well.
Wim - Don, the way you described the relations between the Q-levels is
muddled
from my point of view (even if you mixed in some phrases from Pirsig) and
didn't really go into the way I described them. Just denying my description
doesn't help our discussion further.
Don - Muddled? Maybe I should try again or you could tell me what I didn't
make clear enough.
Wim - "I don't agree that there is (or has been) a war between the
intellectual and
social level anywhere. In my definitions of intellectual and social patterns
of value they are too discrete to be at war.
(I know, in 'Lila' Pirsig not only states that the levels are discrete, but
also uses the 'war' metaphor for the relation between these levels. For me
this implies an inconsistency in his ideas. Maybe because he is an American
too? (-;)
Don - I believe I agreed with you that the levels are discrete. I suppose I
disagree that war is necessarily an inapt metaphor for the conflict between
the discrete levels. It's sure that Pirsig likely disagrees, since it is his
metaphor. However, it is hardly germane. Surely you agree that the levels
are in conflict?
I stated - The levels are discrete, but interactive. All levels are active
at all
times. Which level is ascendant at any given time is constantly in flux.
Is your problem with this statement or with my admittedly simplistic
description of the relationship between the q-levels?
Wim - There can be a war between people behaving in accordance with a lower
quality social pattern of value and people behaving in accordance with a
higher quality social pattern of value.
War, and more generally 'us versus
them' behaviour, is a relatively low quality social pattern of value anyway,
lower than cooperative behaviour.
Don - The higher quality sPOV of cooperative behavior is necessary to
prosecute the "low quality social" endeavour of war. Hmmmm.
Wim - They can motivate their behaviour using intellectual patterns of value
of
different quality. (Those behaving in accordance with a higher quality
social pattern of value don't necessary motivate their behaviour with the
highest quality intellectual pattern of value...)
Don - I suppose I don't understand this statement at all. As a rule, people
don't actively motivate their behaviour.
Wim - Unthinking behavioural patterns (collective 'habits') can't be at war
with
patterns of motivation of behaviour (or patterns of understanding reality,
that are also part of the intellectual level), however.
Don - Again, I'm not sure I am reading this clearly. If you mean that sPOV's
can't be "at war" with iPOV's I guess I have to disagree.
Looking forward to a friendly discussion,
Don (drose)
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