From: Matthew Poot (mattpoot@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Mar 24 2004 - 03:49:58 GMT
Hello Platt,
I would like to use the example of rocks, and mountains. Over time , we
know that mountains change they're shape drastically, thus directly
affecting the organic material/beings around them. Yet, mountains are
inorganic. The weather, rain, is inorganic. It is dynamic, and static, in
different applications.
A rock, is static, and inorganic, seemingly. But over time, imperceptible
by the human eye (mostly), it changes . Everything inorganic, whether it
be atoms, mountains, or grains of sand, are constantly in physical shift.
This change, physical shift, affects other things, creating patterns in its
wake.
Example(to stay with the rock theme) : A rock, over time, is gradually worn
down by the rain. Ever so slowly, it becomes smaller, and along the way
gets knocked around . Eventually it turns into sand.
Pattern: Rock->erosion-->sand
DQ- The pattern, erosion, while in progress, builds up to a point where the
rock will fall , because as it is being eroded, it changes its foothold, and
moves.
Time to go (sorry)
Matt
----- Original Message -----
From: Platt Holden <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: MD SQ-SQ coherence and the Biosphere.
> Hi Mark,
>
> > Mark 22-03-04: Hi Platt,
> > You say here, '...a process that took place long...' as if evolution is
not
> > happening right here and now? As an intellectual postulation, Evolution
is
> > happening all the time and at all levels simultaneously, here and now.
>
> What is evolving at the inorganic level? At the biological level are you
> aware of any new species lately? I haven't seen much evolution at the
> social level since the Civil Rights Act. As for the intellectual level,
> nothing has evolved in philosophy that I know of since Pirsig published
> "Lila." All the really new stuff has come from science and technology.
> What I'm driving at is that according to the MOQ, only living beings can
> respond to DQ. Evolution now is human-driven and isn't occurring at all
> levels simultaneously as claim.
>
> >In
> > MoQ terms this is described in two ways: 1. The event stream (DQ).
(SODV)
> > 2. Static patterns migrating towards DQ. (Lila.)
> >
> > Static patterns emerge from DQ and yet are migrating towards DQ.
> > We may accommodate these two apparently contradictory points by
postulating
> > a relationship between SQ and DQ derived from experience: Coherence.
>
> As I said before, 'coherence' has to do with thoughts, not with
> relationships. (If you want to use 'coherence' as physicists do in
> describing laser light and such, it would be helpful to say so. But I
> don't know why you find it necessary to call upon scientific jargon to
> describe your theories. Pirsig uses good old plain English. :-)
>
> > "Value, the leading edge of reality, is no longer an irrelevant offshoot
of
> > structure. Value is the predecessor of structure. It's the
preintellectual
> > awareness that gives rise to it. Our structured reality is preselected
on
> > the basis of value, and really to understand structured reality requires
an
> > understanding of the value source from which it's derived." [ZMM Ch.24]
>
> Yes. This describes the creative energy of Dynamic Quality leaving static
> patterns in its wake.
>
> > In the Metaphysics of Quality, (Value is a synonym for Quality, so in
the
> > above quote we may regard Value as Quality) Quality has two aspect, SQ
and
> > DQ. Therefore, to paraphrase: 'Our structured reality is preselected on
the
> > basis of a relationship between SQ and DQ.'
>
> I really don't see the significance of "relationship." If you split
> anything into two aspects or parts, there's bound to be a relationship
> between the parts.
>
> > "The Dynamic reality that goes beyond words is the constant focus of Zen
> > teaching. Because of their habituation to a world of words, philosophers
do
> > not often understand Zen. When philosophers have trouble understanding
the
> > distinction between static and Dynamic Quality it can be because they
are
> > trying to include and subordinate all Quality to thought patterns. The
> > distinction between static and Dynamic quality is intended to block
this."
> > [letter from Robert Pirsig to Anthony McWatt, quoted in "Pirsig's
> > Metaphysics of Quality"]
> >
> > Thought patterns cannot deal with DQ, but thought patterns ARE patterns,
> > and share a relationship with DQ as described above: 1. The event stream
> > (DQ). (SODV) 2. Static patterns migrating towards DQ. (Lila.)
>
> About this migration of static patterns towards DQ. The only place I find
> Pirsig talking like this specifically is about Lila and patterns of life.
>
> "Lila is composed of static patterns of value and these patterns are
> evolving towards Dynamic Quality . . . All life is a migration of static
> patterns of quality toward Dynamic Quality." (Lila-11).
>
> Later Pirsig writes:
>
> "And beyond that is an even more compelling reason; societies and thoughts
> and principles themselves are no more than sets of static patterns. These
> patterns cannot by themselves perceive or adjust to Dynamic Quality. Only
> a living being can do that."
>
> So the 'migration' is limited to living beings whereas you thesis seems to
> imply that its descriptive of the entire evolutionary process, including
> the evolution of the inorganic level. Something's amiss.
>
> > Mark 22-03-04: Thought is patterned. Patterns are migrating towards DQ.
>
> Patterns of life are migrating, not all patterns.
>
> > Patterns emerge from DQ. These are accommodated in the term Coherence.
> > Coherence can be extreme - severe. This possibility is right outside
> > everyday experience, but when encountered, can be a revelation. An
example
> > would be to be in the presence of a master artist. The coherence of a
> > master can influence (raise coherence of) the open student dramatically.
In
> > exceptional situations, coherence may approach opaqueness to DQ:
>
> Let me put this in my own words and see if you agree. Patterns emerge from
> DQ. Sometimes when these patterns emerge in your presence you feel a sense
> of awe and wonder. You might even experience a feeling of unity with the
> whole world, a peak experience where words like patterns and DQ fall so
> far short of describing what you feel as to be meaningless. This
> experience of total bliss might happen as you listen to a concerto
> performed by master violinist.
>
> I hope this comes close. If not, I'm lost as to what you mean.
>
> Thanks for your patience.
>
> Best regards,
> Platt
> .
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archives:
> Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> Nov '02 Onward -
http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
>
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Mar 24 2004 - 03:49:59 GMT