From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Mon Mar 29 2004 - 01:05:39 BST
Wim and all MOQers:
Wim said:
Personal experience and practical application is preferred over theology
however. The defining characteristics of Quakers are more in the ..methods
than in any content, except for that original idea -worded in very diverse
ways, however- of the accessibility for all of direct Guidance.
dmb says:
Oh, now I see. I'd been wondering why you kept insisting that religions
should be judged by their methods rather than by their content. I could see
any good reason for that and was going to ask why in the world we should
exclude content. But now I see that you were trying to rig the contest in
your favor. You're a very naughty philospher, Wim. That's cheating and you
know it. Besides, I thought we already agreed that it was a religion's
ability to help its members 'hear the music' for themselves? Here's how it
went down on the 14th. I said...
"If the task of religion is to guide a soul toward the point where he or she
can hear the music for themselves, (and I think that IS the primary purpose
of religion.) then surely the quality of each religion should be ranked and
measured by how well it achieves that task. By that standard, Western
religions have failed. If there is one that can be said to function at all,
I would very much like to know about it."
And you agreed by saying:
I agree with your criterium for good religion. In my presentation of
Quakerism I hope to show that not all Western religions have failed. If you
disagree: what keeps you from nominating a non-Western religion?
dmb continues in the present:
This metaphor of hearing the music was fully explained, in a lenghty post
using numerous sources who all said the same thing as Pirsig, that Western
religions tend to shut out DQ rather than lead one toward it. It was also
pretty clear, I thought, that hearing the music for yourself is a metaphor
for having a mystical experience. But apparently that is not what you were
really agreeing with. Its fairly clear that from the bulk of your
description that we're not talking about the same thing at all - or hardly
at all. And in the closing paragraph you choose to actually mock the idea.
The Quaker enviroment is described as one that is "skeptical of anyone who
pretends that religion can be a simple practising of existing methods that
reliably precipitate a mystical experience."...
Wim said:
"Quaker religious practices can add the opportunity to share with others
what you find in an environment that is sympathetic to any 'seeker' or
'student of religion' and skeptical of anyone who pretends that religion can
be a simple practising of existing methods that 'reliably precipitate a
mystical experience'.
dmb continues:
Whew. I removed two parenthetical statements and it still takes quite a lung
full of air to get it all out in one breath. I don't mean to be nit picky or
complain about mere style, but its pretty easy to get lost in sentences that
long. May I suggest you learn to love the period and the paragraph. Fight
the urge to say everything at once. Just a suggestion. Anyway, back to the
topic... After declaring that Quakerism is skeptical of practicing methods
that precipitate a mystical experience, you follow it immediately with..
Wim said:
Quakerism is BOTH profoundly mystical, experience-based, AND practical, bent
on 'letting your life speak'.
dmb says:
How can Quakerism be both profoundly mystical and experience based, but
skeptical of practicing methods that are aimed at having a mystical
experience? How is this not a direct self contradiction? I don't know, Wim.
I see game rigging, back tracking and contradictions all over this thing.
You're very nice and polite about it, but in terms of actual content you're
just breaking too many rules here. Is it possible that you love her too
much? Is is possible that you'd lie and cheat to protect her? Seek guidence
on that matter, will you brother?
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