From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Tue Mar 30 2004 - 15:04:20 BST
Dear Wim,
> You wrote 22 Mar 2004 11:17:59 -0500:
> 'DMB and I ... agree that 'war' between the intellectual and social levels
> is indeed a fitting metaphor because it's Pirsig's'
>
> If Pirsig is your highest authority on the interpretation of what 'the' MoQ
> is, you might take to heart that he doesn't want his opinions to be read as
> Papal Bull (e.g. see his letter to Paul quoted 29 Sep 2003 16:52:03 +0100).
> He appreciates reading in our discussions 'real philosophy' instead of
> 'philosophology', our own opinions about the general nature of the world
> rather than our discussion of his opinions (see his introduction to 'Lila's
> Child').
My own opinions happen to coincide with Pirsig's on most issues.
> So please give me YOUR reasons for experiencing 'war' a fitting metaphor
> for the relation between the intellectual and social levels.
My reasons are the same as Pirsig's.
> You continued:
> 'You're free, of course, to alter the MOQ any way you wish by saying, for
> example, the levels are not at war. But it wouldn't be the MOQ.'
>
> If you define 'the MoQ' as 'Pirsig's metaphysics' you may be right,
> especially if you use 'Lila' as the crucial test. Am I allowed to call my
> ideas 'a version of the MoQ' that admittedly deviates from some of Pirsig's
> ideas? Should I go somewhere else to present them and compare their quality
> with those of Pirsig and those of other contributors to this list?
When you deviate from Pirsig's MOQ it would help if you qualified your
opinion with something like, "Contrary to what Pirsig says . . ." or some
such caveat so readers know you're aware of the original MOQ. Otherwise,
some of us may think you have misinterpreted the MOQ.
> You 'disagree with DMB's assertion that the conservative position is
> anti-intellectual.' So do I. 'Conservatism' as I understand it is a system
> of ideas that prefers existing, proven patterns of value over new, unproven
> ones and even wants to defend existing patterns against change (conserve
> them), which is too often degeneration. Conservatism and liberalism are
> both needed. They represent sq and DQ in politics.
I don't agree that 'liberalism" as commonly used in the U.S. represents
DQ. It contains, as Pirsig says, a deadly defect. It contains no provision
for morals.
> Your definition (27 Mar 2004 08:38:14 -0500) of 'conservative' as 'someone
> who thinks government should be restrained from doing good things because
> they usually end up badly' is very confusing from a Dutch point of view,
> because that is the position of Dutch political parties that call
> themselves 'liberaal'. They want to 'liberate' society from excessive
> government interference.
From what you say, a Dutch liberal is a U.S. conservative. A U.S. liberal
is a European (and I assume Dutch) socialist.
> It makes me wonder whether your definition of
> 'conservative' isn't too much informed by your 'libertarianism'. I can
> understand it if you experience any government as mainly a source of
> degenerative change, but how is that possible in a democracy?
Democracy, rule by majority, must be restrained, as Pirsig points out in
his discussion of Robert's Rules of Order. Our Constitutional 'Bill of
Rights" protects individual citizens from democratic mob rule as does our
separation of government powers.
> If
> conservatives are in power, how can the government be so bad that it should
> be restrained from doing good?
Depends how you define "doing good." For conservatives, cutting taxes is
doing good.
> Should government also be restrained from
> defending good existing patterns (like heterosexual marriage) against
> degeneration??
Again, it all depends on what you think is 'good.' Ex: Our Social Security
welfare system is going broke, but is defended by liberals. Conservatives
believe It should be replaced by a private system.
Generally speaking, a conservative holds individual freedom to be the
highest moral principle. Thousands of Americans have died to preserve that
principle and make it a reality, as Europeans well know after being freed
from Nazi domination and shielded from Communist incursion.
Best regards,
Platt
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