From: Matthew Poot (mattpoot@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Apr 08 2004 - 17:55:16 BST
Hi,
Some comments,
dmb says:
Liberals support rap culture? .....Liberal feminists like myself, for
example, despise
the misogyny found in so much of rap music.
Poot: So don't listen to shitty rap. :-)
Platt: Everyone knows the U.S. public school system is a colossal failure.
In
> science and math, American students rank near the bottom among
> industrialized nations.
Poot: I agree with you here. However, I do not view the schooling system
as a failure, due to the lack of math and science being taught. In fact,
there is plenty of math and science being taught. What is NOT being taught
enough, is classes which have practical applications in life, for more than
a minority group (mathematicians + scientists). Not everyone is best suited
for the study of Math and Science, although I do think that everyone should
be educated in these aspects.
In most schools, the Music and Language departments are flawlessly falling
into decay.
Platt: Another example would be the static social pattern of the media,
> monopolized until recently by liberals but increasingly challenged by new
> dynamic conservative media outlets like Fox News,
Poot: HAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAH!~!!!!!@!!!!!
Platt: . Fox has 51 percent of the prime-time cable news audience--more
than the liberal CNN and MSNBC combined.
Poot: Does this mean that Fox is better somehow? majority rules?
Platt: Knowing of the millions killed under communist dictatorships, one
would be
incredibly naive not to hate and fear a revival.
Poot: So, basically, you are saying that millions have not been killed in
the name of capitalism, eh?
As an end not, I think this debate over the line between liberal and
conservative is unerringly divisive
Poot
P.S.
dmb says:
Liberals support rap culture? .....Liberal feminists like myself, for
example, despise
the misogyny found in so much of rap music.
Poot: So don't listen to shitty rap. :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: Platt Holden <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 7:35 AM
Subject: RE: MD junk or politics on this list
> DMB and all MOQers:
>
> > Platt said:
> > As for examples of 'war' as a fitting metaphor, in America there's
> > acknowledgment and much debate about 'Culture Wars.' For example, the
> > intellectual level, represented in some cases by 'liberals' and burdened
by
> > the defect of having 'no provision for morals,' supports rap culture
which
> > glorifies profanity, pornography and bestiality. The recent half- time
show
> > at our football Super Bowl represented this culture. The social level,
> > represented in some cases by 'conservatives' and generally supportive of
> > Christian social morality, supports so-called 'family values' which
> > glorifies patriotism, honesty and decency (not to mention sexual
abstinence
> > before marriage). The vast numbers of Americans attending Sunday school
and
> > church services each week represent this culture.
> >
> > dmb says:
> > Liberals support rap culture? The superbowl exposure of Janet Jackson's
> > right boob represents liberal culture? Wow. I feel like a misquito at a
> > nudist colony - I just don't know where to begin. For starters, you've
> > confused the term "liberal" as a euphemism for one with loose morals
with
> > the term "liberal" as a political ideology. I know the Republican
> > propaganda machine has been trying to confuse the public by morphing one
> > into the other, but logicall, factually and philosophically the idea
can't
> > hold a drop of water. Liberal feminists like myself, for example,
despise
> > the misogyny found in so much of rap music.
> .
> The entertainment industry, which funds and produces rap music, is run by
> liberals in Hollywood and New York.
>
> > Platt said:
> > Take, for example, the welfare state. Here is huge social static pattern
> > that was created, expanded and today vigorously defended by liberals.
> > Conservatives would dynamically dissolve this static social pattern and
> > substitute in its place a pattern much more open to DQ by allowing for
> > greater individual freedom.
> >
> > dmb says:
> > Again, I think your case is both factually and logically flawed. For
> > starters, Pirsig explicitly describes America's most ambitious welfare
> > program as intellectual, not social.
>
> The planning may be intellectual, but the resulting welfare state is a
> social pattern. A state cannot read 'Lila.'
>
> > Platt said:
> > Another example would be the static social pattern of the media,
> > monopolized until recently by liberals but increasingly challenged by
new
> > dynamic conservative media outlets like Fox News, the Drudge Report, and
a
> > host of Internet bloggers.
>
> Typical liberal argument--ignore the message, bash the messenger.
>
> > dmb says:
> > New dynamic conservative media? Aren't you the one who pointed out that
we
> > shouldn't confuse novelty with progress? In any case, its pretty
outlandish
> > to characterize these new outlets as an improvement of any kind. I know
> > Matt Drudge. He's a an uneduated gossip monger. Got his start hunting
for
> > celebrity gossip in the dumpsters of Hollywood. Literally. I'm not
kidding.
> > And Fox news is a joke to anyone but a partisan conservative. For
example,
> > Al Franken's latest book is basically a fact-checking project conducted
by
> > a class room full of Ivy Leage grad students. Franken set them to the
task
> > of investigating the veracity of what is reported on Fox's "fair and
> > balanced" news programs. The book is called, "LIES AND THE LYING LIARS
WHO
> > TELL THEM: A Fair and Balanced look at the right". (Fox tried to sue
> > Franken for using the phrase "fair and balanced" in his book title. They
> > were literally laughed out of court. The law suit, said the presiding
> > judge, "was wholly without merit, both factually and legally". Reminds
me
> > of the case Platt is making here.
>
> Some joke. Fox has 51 percent of the prime-time cable news audience--more
> than the liberal CNN and MSNBC combined. Also 1.1 million fewer people
> watch the three liberal network news programs today than 12 months ago.
>
> > Platt said:
> > Another example would be our public schools which are totally controlled
by
> > government bureaucracies and monopolized by a liberal teachers union who
> > block any attempt by conservatives to allow dynamic choice through
school
> > vouchers.
> >
> > dmb says:
> > Again, novelty and progress are two different things. As liberals see
it,
> > the voucher systems proposed by conservative are efforts to A) commodify
> > yet another aspect of life. B) break the back of yet another labor
union.
> > C) Replace secular education, where one is taught HOW to think, with
> > private religious education, where our children are merely taught WHAT
to
> > think. In other words, its a way to get around the seperation of church
and
> > state in our educational system. Again, this is not an innovation, it is
a
> > regression, an undoing of social progress. Its reactionary rather than
> > genuinely conservative.
>
> Everyone knows the U.S. public school system is a colossal failure. In
> science and math, American students rank near the bottom among
> industrialized nations.
>
> > Platt said:
> > Of course, liberals argue that conservatives would like to 'turn back
the
> > clock,' because they believe that anything labelled 'new' is better than
> > 'old' (except things that challenge their power like Fox News)
> > Conservatives argue there's 'nothing new under the sun' and believe the
old
> > ways were often better than the new. Both positions can be
intellectually
> > defended, which means you cannot automatically assign one or the other
to
> > the social level.
> >
> > dmb says:
> > Like I said to Wim, it hardly matter if one is defending tradition in
> > intellecual terms or not, one is still defending tradition. And there
isn't
> > anything inherently wrong with that. I have a tremendous respect for
> > tradition. But when social level moral codes and values try to trump
> > intellectual values, that is immoral and degenerate. For journalists to
be
> > so wildly inaccurate so as to fill entire volumes, such as is the case
with
> > Fox, there has to be something else going on. Nobody THAT incompetent
> > should be able to keep a real job as a journalist. The reason the most
> > inaccurate staff in the history of journalism remains on staff is
becasue
> > FOX is not really interested in journalism or accuracy. They have a
> > different agenda, not least of which is to provide intellectually
dishonest
> > people with a reason and an excuse to dismiss the more disconcerting
facts
> > of the day.
>
> Sounds like National Public Radio to me.
>
> > Platt said:
> > So let us not be too hasty in assigning 'conservative' to the social
level
> > and 'liberal' to the intellectual level. I know liberals would love to
> > think of themselves as the avant-garde of Pirsig's evolutionary
> > metaphysics. But their staunch defense of outmoded static social
patterns
> > belies their belief.
> >
> > dmb says:
> > There is a certain kind of genuine conservative position that can
rightly
> > be characterized as intellectual. (I'd suggest George Nash's book; THE
> > CONSERVATIVE INTELLECTUAL MOVEMENT IN AMERICA SINCE 1945.) The Oxford
> > Encyclopedia devotes many thousands of words to describing it. But what
we
> > see happening in actual politics bares very little resemblance to that
> > legitimate ideology. Most of the main players in the current
administration
> > are more accurately called neo-conservatives. The Republican party
itself
> > is dominated by the more reactionary religious right, but also includes
> > free market libertarians, old-fashioned bigots, nationalists and other
> > factions that have various reasons to hate and fear the "radical foreign
> > commie eggheads".
>
> Knowing of the millions killed under communist dictatorships, one would be
> incredibly naive not to hate and fear a revival.
>
> > The liberal eggheads aren't at the cutting edge. Nobody is suggesting
> > anything terribly big or new or radical. Today liberals find themselves
in
> > a defensive postion. All three branches of government are controlled by
> > conservative majorities and 80% of the men is this county have a hair
cut
> > that makes them look like a member of the SS. .
>
> The logic is impeccable. If your hair is short you're a Nazi.
>
> > The conservative
> > complaints about the tyrannical, oppressive and coercive nature of
> > government fail to recognize that our government was concieved from the
> > very start as a means of protecting indvidual rights.
>
> Complete agreement. Our government was conceived to protect individuals
> from the tyrannical, oppressive and coercive nature of government.
>
> > As Jefferson puts it
> > in the Declaration, "governments are instituted among men in order to
> > secure these rights". Yea, conservatives want a small government. They
want
> > it to be just small enough to get in your bedroom door with a gun and a
> > pair of handcuffs.
>
> Thanks to DMB we have a colorful and accurate description of the nature of
> government. How intellectual level is a gun and a pair of handcuffs?
>
> Platt
>
>
>
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