From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Fri Apr 16 2004 - 20:00:54 BST
Hi Platt/Sam/Steve
This is interesting. I have agreed with Sam until now but
Steve has made me think. The mix is about intellect/freedom/DQ/
individual. Maybe the level in terms of pattern is all about intellectual
capacity/powers/knowledge. It is these patterns that make individuality
possible, and it is an individuality that is the greatest expression of
freedom/DQ
yet achieved in nature. Any other thoughts?
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 5:13 PM
Subject: Re: Re: MD The Individual Level
> Hi Steve Peterson,
>
> > I think that the misunderstanding that suggests eudamonia level for Sam
> > and individual level for Platt is conceiving of the levels as types of
> > people rather than types of patterns of value.
>
> For myself, besides the arguments Sam presents, it's a question of
dominance.
> Only individuals create intellectual patterns. Most of us agree that those
> patterns existed and still exist at the social level. But when the
> individuals who created those patterns saw that the social level was a
> hindrance to their free expression, they gathered sufficient power to
> create a new level that freed them from the stifling confines of social
> level patterns, you know, freedom of religion, of speech, trial by jury,
> etc.
>
> > Eudamonia and individual describe people, whereas Pirsig's intellectual
> > level is a collection of patterns of value of a particluar type.
>
> I don't see how you can divorce people from intellectual patterns.
>
> >When you
> > think of the levels as types of patterns where intellectual patterns are
> > simply patterns of thinking, then there is no need to do any renaming.
>
> I don't see how you can divorce individuals from patterns of thinking.
>
> > There is no better word than intellectual to describe the sort of
pattern
> > that Pirsig refers to by the fourth level.
>
> Sam and I disagree.
>
> > I hope that the problems that
> > each of you found with the term intellectual will lead you to reconsider
> > how you have been thinking about what Pirsig means by level. As Ayn Rand
> > would tell you, when you encounter a contradiction, check your
assumptions.
> > There are no contradictions.
>
> I see no contradictions in renaming the Intellectual Level the Individual
> Level. It's simply a proposal for a change for the better in the MOQ,
> something Pirsig encouraged.
>
> Regards,
> Platt
>
>
>
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