Re: MD quality religion (Christianity)

From: Ascmjk@aol.com
Date: Mon May 24 2004 - 17:31:37 BST

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    In a message dated 5/24/2004 10:03:40 AM Central Standard Time,
    markheyman@infoproconsulting.com writes:
    JON:
    So clearly the "visionaries"made the war against England happen in
    1776. I consider George W Bush to be such a visionary. It's too early
    to tell, but if 20 years from now Iraq is a peaceful democracy
    (somewhere along the lines of Japan or Germany) people who criticized
    Bush's motives in Iraq will grudgingly admit they were wrong.

    msh says:
    Your argument might have some weight if, say, China had invaded the
    US in 1775, defeated the British in a putative "American Revolution",
    then gathered up the former colonists and said, "Ok, now here's how
    we're gonna do this democracy thing..."

    As it is, the logical gap is unbridgable.
    JON:
    Well, what's different is always easy to point out, but that doesn't change
    the fact that there are similarities worth thinking about as well. The
    differences between a man and a woman, or a white person or a black person, doesn't
    change the fact that they are all human beings, even though at first glance
    their particular label might carry the most immediate weight.

    The American Revolution and Iraqi Freedom are both important chapters in the
    book of human freedom. When the politically motivated skepticism of the
    present fades with the years, the indelible consequences of Iraqi Freedom will
    remain. I believe that it will be remembered as the vital first step in the
    democratization of the Middle East. I stress *first step* because many people are
    impatient that things aren't settling into a perfect orbit more quickly. Long
    journeys begin with those first steps.

    It's also important to point out that elements of democracy and change can
    already be found in the Middle East (beyond Isreal). The citizens of Bahrain
    elected their own parliament for the first time in three decades last year. Oman
    has extended the vote to all adult citizens. Qatar has a new constitution.
    Yemen has a multiparty political system. Kuwait has a directly elected national
    assembly. Jordan held historic elections last year (I think). American and the
    world should foster these elements of democracy and change which already exist
    in the Middle East. The idea is for Iraq to become the ultimate ideal for
    others in the region to emulate. Incrementalism should do the job in the rest of
    the Middle East, as those in surrounding countries will yearn to taste the
    freedom enjoyed by Iraq. Obviously, Iraq needs further stabilization at this
    point, and I believe the upcoming handover will help in that regard. Working
    democracies take time to develop, as did our own, which should make us naturally
    patient and understanding as Iraq goes through different stages of this journey.
    There were only about 40 democracies in the world in the early 70's. Now
    there are over 120. I don't think it's an accident that the swiftest rise in
    democracy took place when the world's most influential nation was itself a
    democracy. (and to those who want to get legalistic, no I don't mean *pure* mob rule,
    I mean democracy being an integral part of government).

    In conclusion, the verdict remains the same. If in 20 years Iraq is a
    relatively peaceful functioning democracy (along the lines of Japan or Germany) those
    who were skeptical of Bush's vision will grudgingly have to admit they were
    wrong.

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