Re: MD quality religion (Christianity)

From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Wed May 26 2004 - 02:57:35 BST

  • Next message: David Morey: "MD MOQ and The Moral Evolution of Society."

    On 25 May 2004 at 23:18, Wim Nusselder wrote:

    You confirmed 25 May 2004 09:36:43 -0700 that in your experience

    1) 'whacky religious right' are a majority of the American
    population.

    msh says:
    Well, I made this sound a bit whimsical, for fun. I believe that a
    large majority of Americans have non-rational ideas about the world
    around them, including religious beliefs in the normal sense of the
    term. I hasten to add, however, that all people, to one extent or
    another, hold non-rational beliefs. To point the bigger finger at
    Americans is misleading. I'm sure you could find plenty of examples
    in your own country. If not, I bet I could.

    wim said:
    2) the USA isn't democratic enough for that to have a real impact on
    politics.

    msh says:
    Not in the sense of being able to get the government to bring on the
    apocalypse, no. I think the religious constituency does have an
    effect on politics, more so at the local levels, less so as you move
    to the levels of big city, state and federal.

    wim said:
    3) political power in the USA is in the hands of an elite of
    selfish rich people and

    msh says: This makes it sounds like it's all about money. It's
    about maintaining and expanding power and all the privilege that
    comes with it, including wealth. And this isn't unique to the US,
    either.

    wim said:
    4) the American political system enables this
    elite to prevent its removal from this power position.

    msh says:
    More accurately, the political system is shaped and maintained by
    powerful elites in order to extend their privilege. This is nothing
    new, and also not unique to America.

    wim asked:
    If you would go to a good-sized mall in any American city, and stop
    100 people at random and ask them whether they would recognize your
    experience, how many would affirm?

    msh says:
    I think points 2-4 would get a pretty good rating, actually. More
    than half. 60%? Maybe more. There's a lot of distrust of the
    american political process. This is one of the reasons why half the
    eligible population don't bother to vote. They sense the thing is
    rigged.

    wim asked:
    If very few, how do you explain that their experience is so different
    from yours? I wouldn't understand if you would still be proud to be
    an American, but can you accept this negative experience? If not,
    what do you do to change it?

    msh says:
    This sounds as if you were expecting me to say few. But even though
    I think there are more than a few, I would like to improve those
    numbers. What I do about it is engage in exchanges like this one,
    and all the others in this forum, and other forums as well. I guess
    you'd say I'm involved in the education process. I paraphrase from
    an earlier message: All we have to do is NOT IMPEDE the free flow
    and interaction of ideas and maximize individual freedom for the
    greatest number of people possible. Under these conditions, DQ will
    drive societies toward moral perfection.

    wim says:
    Would you be in favour of some sort of intervention by the rest of
    the world to make the USA more democratic and to redistribute wealth
    and power?

    msh says:
    Of course not. No country has the right to invade another country in
    order to "put things right." It's the responsibility of the citizens
    of every country to do what they can to assist in the moral evolution
    of their own societies.

    I think you may misunderstand my feelings about America.

    Although I think the nation-state arrangement of the world we live in
    is artificial and highly regressive, the current result of thousands
    of years of tribal warfare, I nevertheless believe it is possible to
    assess the overall moral value of any individual nation. In many
    ways, particularly in the areas of personal freedom, it's not an
    exaggeration to say that the US is the greatest nation on earth,
    maybe even the greatest ever. I love my country, and feel fortunate
    to be part of it.

    It's precisely because I think this way that I spend so much time
    criticizing American foreign and domestic policy. When my government
    acts in ways antithetical to what I perceive to be my country's
    greatest principles, it is my patriotic obligation to speak out about
    it, to help change it in any way I can.

    Furthermore, I always get a little nervous when I sense that non-
    Americans are spending an inordinate amount of time bashing American
    policy, no matter how warranted. Unless American policy is in their
    face right now, such as what's going on in Iraq, my feeling is that
    non-Americans should expend most of their political energy examining
    their own societies, helping to bring about moral improvements there
    Just my opinion, of course.

    Anyway, thanks, Wim, for the interesting questions.

    Yours in friendship,
    Mark Heyman

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