From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Mon Jun 07 2004 - 06:00:48 BST
Dear Platt,
Here's my announced further reply to what you wrote 2 Jun 2004
17:29:57 -0400:
'Pirsig had to say about dealing with threats to civilization:
"The instrument of conversation between society and biology has always
been a policeman or a soldier and his gun." (Lila, 24)
...
your pacifist views ... are central in the Quaker belief system. Were
everyone like you, there would indeed be peace in the world.'
You will not be surprised either, that I slightly disagree with Pirsig on
the instruments of conversation between society and biology.
Firstly I would rather like to call them 'instruments of conversation'
between higher and lower quality (parts of) societies, in which the lower
quality parts/ones can be characterized by seeking 'immediate gratification'
(thanks to MBSJ79@aol.com alias Calvin 2 Jun 2004 18:51:48 -0400 for the
term). I accept 'society' and 'biology' as metaphors and shorthands for
those higher and lower quality (parts of) societies, but as no more than
that.
Secondly 'the policeman or a soldier and his gun' (or a trained
caste/class/age group of warriors, knights/samurai etc.) are indeed
important instruments of conversation between 'society' and 'biology'. They
are only essential however to the second type of society as described in my
'economics of want and greed'. (See
www.antenna.nl/wim.nusselder/schrijfsels/economics.htm directly or via
www.moq.org for those who didn't read the instalments of this essay on this
list.)
Other 'instruments of conversation' are:
- perceived family-like relations combined with a perceived need (in order
to survive as group) for reciprocal give-and-take relations among 'insiders'
and for exclusion from those reciprocal relations of 'outsiders' (essential
to the first type of society),
- economic dependence (essential to the third type of society) and
- identification with ideology (essential to the fourth type of society).
Upon your request I summarized my 'economics of want and greed' thus:
'Economics is (our study of) how we organize that people get what they want.
People do things because they want things. They want what gives their
existence meaning. Most of what they do is involuntary, however. Asked why
they do them, they invent reasons.
Leaders help people organize to get what they want by ... giving good
reasons to want what they can organize for them.
I distinguish 4 types of leadership (types of economy): 'natural', enforced,
entrepreneurial and ideological. Modern society contains a mix.
We should maximize number 4, organization by shared goals and interests,
reducing involuntary economics.'
The way in which higher quality societies outcompete lower quality societies
is essentially by better meeting people's needs. People who go for immediate
gratification of their wants can in the end only be led to participate in
higher quality social patterns of value by making them experience that these
meet their needs better than lower quality ones. My characterization of the
social level aspects of the terrorism that your government is concerned
about is: a social pattern of value that 'promises' direct gratification of
the need to get rid of perceived domination and humiliation by the USA and
by USA-supported governments elsewhere (e.g. in Israel). Instead of making
war on terrorism that need should be met, if only by changing their
perception with an alternative, more liberal, interpretation of Islam.
By the way, you wrote 10 Nov 2003 11:47:14 -0500:
'I received your summary and very much appreciate your taking the time
and trouble to answer my request. By doing so, it's much easier to
identify your fundamental premises. I thank you. I may have more to
say about it later.'
I would still be interested to hear what fundamental premises you found in
my 'economics of want and greed' and what you think of it.
With friendly greetings,
Wim
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