From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Jun 13 2004 - 20:23:34 BST
Howdy MOQers:
From Platt Holden:
I have to hand it to DMB and MSH. Their attempts to revise history seem
convincing, particularly their descriptions of "fascism." What they fail
to tell you, however, is that Mussolini was a socialist, who, thrown out
by fellow-socialists, formed his own socialist party named "fascist" after
a symbol from ancient Rome. Hitler's outfit was called the National
Socialist German Workers' Party, with a manifesto copied from Marx. It was
Stalin who named Hitler's regime "fascist' to cover up the fact that it,
too, was socialist like his own bloody regime.
dmb replies:
By that logic both the Union of Soviet Socialist REPUBLICS and the People's
REPUBLIC of China were/are the same as the Republican Party. There is often
huge gap between labels and the actual content. Besides, its a matter of
historical fact that Hitler was rabidly anti-communist and hated liberals
even more so. Once again, Platt has demonstrated that he is not in possesion
of the facts and wouldn't be capable of interpreting those facts even if he
had them. But this is only to be expected from those who are informed by Ayn
Rand and Rush Limbaugh.
Platt said;
No question in my mind, nor in Pirsig's, which system is more moral.
dmb says:
"A man with no doubt is a monster." Garrison Keillor 6/12/04 (He was
refering to Bush, but applies more widely than than.)
Despite the fact that I posted a Pirsig quote that directly contradicts
Platt's assertion, first in February of 2002 and probably a dozen times
since then, he persists in making this conspicuously incorrect point.
"It's not that Victorian social economic patterns are more moral than
socialist intellectual economic patterns. Quite the opposite. They are LESS
moral as static patterns go." P221
And they are LESS moral because they are at a lower level of evolution, as
in the distinction between socialism and fascism...
"The hurricane of social forces released by the overthrow of society by
intellect was most strongly felt in Europe, ..where Communism and socialism,
programs for intellectual control over society, were confronted by the
reactionary forces of fascism, a program for the social control of
intellect." P274
Further, it is crystal clear that Pirsig defines socialism as intellectual
and fascism as social and yet Platt continues to insist they are not only on
the same level, but are in fact the same thing. Pirsig does not stop with
ideological designations. He goes on to be very specific in his description
of fascism and socialism as a conflict between levels by using concrete
historical examples...
"The gigantic power of socialism and fascism, which have overwhelmed this
century, is explained by a conflict of levels of evolution. This conflict
explains the driving force behind Hitler not as an insane search for power
but as an all-consuming glorification of social authority and hatred of
intellectualism. His anti-Semitism was fueled by anti-intellectualism. His
hatred of communists was fueled by anti-intellectualism. His exaltation of
the German volk was fueled by it. His fanatic persecution of any kind of
intellectual freedom was driven by it."
Ken Wilber essentially makes the same distinction in his INTEGRAL
PSYCHOLOGY...
"Tribalism, when left to its own devices, is relatively benign, simply
becasue its means and its technologies are relatively harmless. You can only
inflict so much damage on the biosphere, and on other humans, with a bow and
arrow. The problem is that the advanced technologies of rationality, when
hijacked by tribalism and its ethnocentric drives, can be devastating.
Auschwitz is not the result of rationality. Auschwitz is the result of the
many products of rationality being used in irrational ways. Auschwitz is
rationality hijacked by tribalism, by an ethnocentric mythology of blood and
soil and race, rooted in the land, romantic in its dispositions, barbaric in
its ethnic cleansing. You cannot seriously attempt genocide with a bow and
arrow; but you can attempt it with steel and coal, combustion engines and
gas chambers, machine guns and atomic bombs. These are not rational desires
by any definition of rational; these are ethnocentric tribalism
commandeering the tools of an advanced consciousness and using them
presicelyt for the lowest of the lowest motives. Auschwitz is the endgame,
not of reason, but of tribalim."
So you can see that both Pirsig and Wilber define fascism as a reactionary
movement that opposes rationality and intellectualism. Both describe it as a
regression back to a pre-modern, mythic way of thinking.
I think we can see the same impulse in Christian fundamentalism, which we
can rightly call Christo-fascism. Consider the 66% of Americans who take the
book of Revelations literally. In the scenario depicted there, all the
people in the world who are not Christians will either be converted or
killed and sent to hell forever. This is a kind of divine genocide, an
infantile fantasy that all dissenteres will be eliminated and cleansed from
the earth. Hitler, at least, was willing to take responsiblity for his
genocidal impulses. Or consider the administrations stated goal of ridding
the world of "evildoers". Notice also the anti-intellectual impulse in both
kinds of conservatives. This is extremely dangerous stuff, my friends.
Beyond the murderous effects of such reactionary movements, there is also
the risk of destroying the intellectual level itself. This is what is under
attack by these various reactionary movements. And this is what is under
attack from Platt. He never met an intellectual or a liberal for whom he did
not have utter contempt. And neither did Hitler, who, like Platt, also liked
to paint. (Now I'm just having fun.)
Thanks,
dmb
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