From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Thu Jun 17 2004 - 15:58:18 BST
Dear Wim,
> Dear Platt,
> You wrote 12 Jun 2004 10:16:02 -0400:
> 'Pirsig's ... distinction [between the social and intellectual levels] is
> the force of tradition vs creative thought. Mine is the power of the
> collective vs. freedom of the individual.'
>
> Do I detect a claim to have improved on Pirsig's ideas? (-;
> My interpretation of Pirsig's ideas is to associate 'tradition' with
> 'collective habits' and to underline that 'creative' is only applicable
> when looking at the intellectual level from a social level point of view.
> Seen from within the intellectual level only new intellectual patterns of
> value are 'creative'. Pirsig gives enough examples of very static
> intellectual patterns of value. How does your distinction between 'power of
> the collective' and 'freedom of the individual' square with the requisite
> that levels be (relatively) discrete in the MoQ?
What ties the intellectual level to the social level is its dependence on
on the social level as well as all the levels below. The intellectual and
social levels are also tied to one another in that both are subjective.
My distinction is based on Pirsig's statement that only a living being (an
individual) can respond to DQ, and that societies only change one person
at a time with someone (an individual) always first. The power of the
collective can't create anything, only reshuffle existing deck chairs on
the Titanic.
> In my view one cannot
> experience 'power of the collective' without experiencing (lack of)
> 'freedom of the individual' and vice versa. In other words: it is
> experience of the same kind, comparable (even if conflicting) and thus of
> the same level.
Pure experience is the same, but varies from level to level, like the
present never changes, but everything that changes changes in the present.
Experience comes first and applies across all levels. I can experience a
good meal at the biological level and a good book at the intellectual
level, but both are related under the larger umbrella of "my experience."
So I disagree with your premise.
For Pirsig, experience is reality. The rest is pattern making to make
experience meaningful so we can get on with the business of life and
living. As Rollo May put it. "We hear the songs of angels in a symphony,
we bow a moment to communicate with infinity, and then return to digging
potatoes."
Communicating with infinity and digging potatoes--the varieties of
experience at different levels. I prefer the former to the latter, of
course, but can't do one without the other, and can't do either without
experience.
Best regards,
Platt
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