From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Tue Jun 22 2004 - 17:13:50 BST
Hi All,
> On 21 Jun 2004 at 10:35, Platt Holden wrote:
>
> Pirsig:
> "What makes the free-enterprise system superior is that the
> socialists, reasoning intelligently and objectively, have
> inadvertently closed the door to Dynamic Quality in the buying and
> selling of things. They closed it because the metaphysical structure
> of their objectivity never told them Dynamic Quality exists." (Lila,
> 17)
Mark M 22-6-04: Dear Platt, if you look at the word, 'things' in this
paragraph, what do you believe 'things' to be? The MOQ is not a SOM so they cannot be
material objects can they?
They must be Static patterns of Quality that share a relationship with Static
patterns of Humans.
Buying and selling involves patterns of value. If you are an Intellectually
dominated individual you buy ideas. If you are a Socially dominated individual
you buy celebrity status. If you are a Biologically dominated individual you
buy pleasure.
What do you feel a free-market system should sell Platt? I imagine you are
not going to intelligently suggest that the free-market should sell anything
other than the best values?
>
> Platt:
> To all egalitarians, communitarians and other radical left-wingers
> who think the MOQ supports their collectivist social values--read it
> again and weep. Intellect sides with free enterprise.
Mark M 22-6-04: Pirsig suggests free-enterprise sides with DQ. He does not
say Intellect sides with free-enterprise. DQ can lower intellectual value if
free-enterprise boost DQ at the biological and social levels at the expense of
intellectual Quality.
Socialism is not synonymous with communism. It is possible for a socialist
government to encourage free-enterprise with the over riding proviso that such
Dynamic activity must not harm intellectual Quality, must raise intellectual
Quality through social patterns, and raise social Quality for all Humans within
the society.
>
> msh says:
> What Platt doesn't understand is that Pirsig is speaking about a
> theoretical "Free Market" that doesn't exist.
Nonsense. Pirsig writes:
"People, like everything else, work better in parallel than they do in
series, and that is what happens in THIS FREE ENTERPRISE CITY. When things
are organized socialistically in a bureaucratic series, any increase in
complexity increases the probability of failure. But when they're
organized in a free-enterprise parallel, an increase in complexity becomes
an increase in diversity more capable of responding to Dynamic Quality,
and thus an increase of the probability of success. It's this diversity
and parallelism that make this city work. And not just this city. Our
greatest national economic success, agriculture, is organized almost
entirely in parallel." (Lila, 17) (emphasis added)
Mark M 22-6-04: Free enterprise and free-market are not the same. If a
free-market existed on a global scale all the jobs in the US would flood to other
countries where wages are minimal and there would be no jobs left in the US at
all. That's a free-market for you Platt.
Free-enterprise is another thing. Free enterprise is about maximising Quality
in patterned relationships, and these patterns may be social as well as
intellectual. Free enterprise does not have to be about profit; the free-market is
all about profit. That's why Mark H is correct to tell you the free-market
does not exists.
Free-enterprise has to find it's own coherent state. If that state is too
Dynamic, then NYC is a dangerous place to live and visit. If it is 'just right'
then NYC evolves at the edge of chaos.
The last i heard, New Yorkers where eager to create many public gardens
throughout the city in order to maintain social Quality. That takes free
enterprise.
By "this free enterprise city" Pirsig is speaking about the existing New
York, not some theoretical Utopia.
Wouldn't you think that in a site dedicated to Pirsig that contributors
would actually read what he wrote once in awhile?
Best,
Platt
Mark M 22-6-04: Reading is one thing, understanding may be more challenging.
In your comments above Platt you have made at least one significant mistake:
You state that Intellect sides with free enterprise when Pirsig actually says
free-enterprise values DQ.
The fallout from this is that free-enterprise may raise DQ response at levels
which damage the intellectual level.
Free-enterprise may also raise DQ response at the Intellectual level, but an
examination of how this is best achieved suggests that Social patterns must
reinforce the intellectual and suppress the biological.
Therefore, contrary to your claim that, "Intellect sides with free
enterprise" it should be noted that, "Intellect sides with social patterns which
reinforce intellectual patterns via a free-enterprise system responding to DQ at the
Social and Intellectual level in Coherent harmony."
All the best,
Mark M
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Tue Jun 22 2004 - 21:25:19 BST