From: Paul Vogel (nitzke@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Jun 22 2004 - 16:50:20 BST
Hello All,
Why have we not responded to all and any such "social-marxist" dogmatism and
propaganda?
You then ask:
"As usual, all thoughtful, well-reasoned, evidence-supported argument and
commentary will be greatly appreciated."
Mark, when you do actually provide any "thoughtful, well-reasoned,
evidence-supported arguement and commentary" to scientifically and factually
support your own "social-marxist" HUMAN EQUALITY or "Politically-Correct"
DOGMATISM, then we might consider it.
Until then, it is clear that ignoring such "social-marxist" propaganda and
nonsense and only providing our own actual "thoughtful, well-reasoned,
evidence-supported arguement and commentary" that is also scientifically and
factually supported by REALITY, is the only higher intellectual level
valuing both the WHOLE TRUTHS of REALITY and the MOQ.
Best regards,
Paul Vogel
http://www.cosmotheism.net
>From: "Mark Steven Heyman" <markheyman@infoproconsulting.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: MD Neo-Nazi Racism and the MOQ go together like peanutbutter
>and bro ken glass. Sandwich anyone?
>Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:30:54 -0700
>
>Hi Platt and all,
>
>David Buchanan offered a series of points for discussion. Neither
>Platt nor the overt racist bothered to address any of them. The
>methods of discussion of both Platt and the overt racist is to simply
>IGNORE all points proven in previous posts, and to either restate
>their unsupported opinions, or to quote Pirsig incompletely and out
>of context, even though such quotations have REPEATEDLY been shown to
>be insufficient to make their point. So...
>
>Below are several of dmb's points, which I offer again for
>discussion, argument, refutation.
>
>dmb said:
>Racism isn't the only thing Holden and [the overt racist] have in
>common. They are also both fond of quoting Pirsig's "germ" passages
>to justify their murderous hatred.
>
>They both think everything left of center is Marxist.
>
>They both think Pirsig is compatible with their fasicst views.
>
>Bogus science is used to muddy the waters on issues like global
>warming and biological evolution, for example. The right-wingers have
>hatched think tanks and media outlets that are equally psuedo-
>intellectual.
>
>Conversatives tend to hate the eggheads and the elitists, as they
>like to call them, but they also want the respectability and status
>that comes from scientific and intellectual credibility. They sense
>that its a good thing that people should have, but they don't really
>know what it is.
>
>Rush Limbaugh doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same
>sentence with Noam Chomsky.
>
>This is what Pirsig was talking about when he said social values can
>be intellectually defended. But it is the social values that are
>being defended and the style or manner hardly matters - except when
>it serves to hide, disguise and obscure the substance of the
>assertion, as is almost always the case with the pseudointellectual
>nonsense asserted by Platt and PV. These guys clearly don't know
>their crackpots from a hole in the ground...
>
>S.J. Gould:
>"'The Bell Curve' ..presents no compelling data to support its
>anachronistic social Darwinism, so I can only conclude that its
>success in winning attention must reflect the depressing temper of
>our time -- a historical moment of unprecedented ungenerosity, when a
>mood for slashing social programs can be power-fully abetted by an
>argument that beneficiaries cannot be helped, owing to inborn
>cognitive limits expressed as low I.Q. scores."
>
>dmb continues:
>"Unprecedented ungenerosity" is a very generous way to put it. And it
>has become even worse since he wrote it. I believe Platt and Paul and
>their sympathizers are quite sincere and simply do not understand
>that they are on the wrong side in a larger metaphysical battle, one
>depicted quite well in Lila.
>
>Platt does not even see that his views are a kissin cousin of the
>freak show called Cosmotheism.
>
>And [the overt racist] thinks he is not a racist. He re-defines the
>word in a racist way that allows him to escape the charge and hate
>the jews at the same time. I would hope that the irrationality, if
>not absurdity, of such a move is obvious to all reasonable creatures.
>
>
>But more importantly, I hope that these guys serve to demonstrate
>what social level values look like as they are exhibited in
>particular individuals.
>
>
>Pirsig in LILA:
>"The gigantic power of socialism and fascism, which have overwhelmed
>this century, is explained by a conflict of levels of evolution. This
>conflict explains the driving force behind Hitler not as an insane
>search for power but as an all-consuming glorification of social
>authority and hatred of intellectualism."
>
>
>Ken Wilber in his INTEGRAL PSYCHOLOGY:
>"Auschwitz is the result of the many products of rationality being
>used in irrational ways. Auschwitz is rationality hijacked by
>tribalism, by an ethnocentric mythology of blood and soil and race,
>rooted in the land, romantic in its dispositions, barbaric in its
>ethnic cleansing. You cannot seriously attempt genocide with a bow
>and arrow; but you can attempt it with steel and coal, combustion
>engines and gas chambers, machine guns and atomic bombs. These are
>not rational desires by any definition of rational; these are
>ethnocentric tribalism commandeering the tools of an advanced
>consciousness and using them presicely for the lowest of the lowest
>motives. Auschwitz is the endgame, not of reason, but of tribalim."
>
>
>dmb says:
>Is uncritical patriotism so very different from the "glorification of
>social authority".
>
>Is racism so very different from an "ethnocentric mythology"? I'm not
>saying that Platt is building gas chambers. The differences are many.
>But the similarities revolve around the desire to assert social level
>values and/or attack intellectual level values.
>
>This basic distinction is what puts fascism and its cousins on the
>right on the wrong side of the evolutionary struggle. So, when guys
>like Platt and [the overt racist] imagine that Pirsig supports their
>value system, they couldn't be more mistaken. They love a book in
>which they are depicted as the enemy of intellect and evolution
>itself. [msh adds: How's that for irony?]
>
>...when a social level value system encounters intellectual level
>values, they are seen as "germs". This explains both Hitler's anti-
>intellectualism and Platt's hatred of Chomsky and Zinn in favor of
>Rush, the Bell Curvers and the rest of his crypto-fascist mentors.
>This explains why [the overt facist] views legitimate science as a
>political enemy.
>
>
>msh adds:
>Well, Platt and OR, take your pick. As usual, all thoughtful, well-
>reasoned, evidence-supported argument and commentary will be greatly
>appreciated.
>
>Best to all,
>Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
>--
>InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
>Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
>Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
>
>
>"Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
>everything." -- Henri Poincare'
>
>
>
>MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
>Mail Archives:
>Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
>Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
>MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
>To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
>http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
>
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups – now 3 months FREE!
http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Wed Jun 23 2004 - 01:51:27 BST