From: Dan Glover (daneglover@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Jun 28 2004 - 06:24:57 BST
Hello everyone
>From: "Mark Steven Heyman" <markheyman@infoproconsulting.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: Re: [Spam] RE: MD immoral irony?????
>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:35:59 -0700
>
>Hi Dmb, Dan, all,
>
> >Pirsig said:
> >"The root of the 'racism' problem goes all the way back to square
> >one, to the subject-object metaphysics wherein man is an object who
> >possesses a set of properties called a culture. SOM lumpsbiological
> >man and cultural man together as aspects of a single molecular unit.
>
> >...By contrast the MOQ, also going back to square one, says that man
> >is composed of static levels of patterns of evolution with a
> >capability of response to DQ. It says that biological patterns are
> >often grouped together, but to say that a cultural pattern is an
> >integral part f a biological person is like saying the Lotus 1-2-3
> >program is an integral part of an IBM computer. Not so."
>
>dan:
>Yes that seems about right. It seems to me when we talk of racism we
>are talking about social patterns of value. When we talk of genetic
>differences we're talking about biological patterns of value. The
>problem with SOM is that these values are conflated. That's what I
>read RMP saying in the quote you offer. That's what I've been saying
>only not nearly as elegantly. Thank you for sharing the quote.
>
>msh says:
>I guess I would disagree with Dan here, who, in a recent post to me,
>said "... I think the MOQ would say it [race] is also a biological
>concept."
>
>I see the Pirsig quote (thanks dmb) as evidence that cultural
>patterns, like race, are not a part of biological patterns at all, no
>more that software is part of a computer. That is, in the MOQ, race
>doesn't exist at the biological level, AT ALL.
Hi Mark
If you read the LILA quote offered by dmb again you may notice RMP is
talking about "racism" and not race. Big, big difference my boys. Could you
please offer a quote from LILA that says race doesn't exist in the MOQ? I'm
not aware of one. This quote we're discussing doesn't support that thesis.
As always, IMO.
>
>Here's the exchange between Dan and me:
>
>dan:
>"I'm not denying race is a social concept. I think it is. But I think
>the MOQ would say it's also a biological concept."
>
>msh:
>Right. But very different concepts using the same word, always a
>major source of confusion in discussion, and, in this case, providing
>a chance for racists to claim scientific credibility for their views.
Yes there are many problematic words in the English language. That's why I
keep a good dictionary handy.
>
>msh continues:
>In my posts, where I'm talking about science, such as the reply
>above, I'm stuck in SOM because that's what science is based on. My
>SOMish point is that society's concept of race and science's concept
>of race, to the extent that it is used, ARE NOT THE SAME. Society's
>concept is born of divisiveness and exploitation; it is based solely
>on appearance, and is of extremely low value.
I'm not arguing against you here. I merely said society's concept is a
social pattern of value in the MOQ and as such is subjective. Dmb I can
understand disagreeing with me but I'm not sure why you don't see what I'm
writing.
>
>Again, this is why most scientists, including physical and social
>scientists, eschew the word "race." What I'm saying now is that we
>at the cultural level should take the cue from science and stop using
>a confusing, empty, and divisive word. As Ant said earlier, it's a
>static latch who's days are numbered. Goodbye and good riddance.
Yes you're probably right.
Thank you for your comments.
Dan
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