From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri Jul 16 2004 - 19:30:18 BST
Hi Platt and Mel,
Mel:
>Criminal thugery has no quality, it is as you've pointed out, little
>more than an uncontrolled biological expression of selfishness trying to
>dominate a society they cannot accept, in the case of Islamic fundees.
Platt:
>It's biological for sure. That's why I don't hesitate to label such thugs
"germs."
No way, this sort of thuggery is intellectual, the whole point of it is to
effect society, it is the interaction of level three patterns, one society
trying to dominate another. Why can't you admit it's intellectual? Not
everything intellectual is good, and all bad things don't have to be
biological. The dying is biological, yes, but the killing and the reaction
people have to it is social, and the whole reason for it is intellectual.
The beings doing the killing and dying are atoms of biology being arranged
in social and intellectual patterns. (And the killing is not a pattern, but
rather the shocking breakdown of the social expectation not to kill because
it was overwhelmed by other social and intellectual patterns)
>However, when a large enough number of authority figures in a
>society preach/encourage/order their controlled biological units
>to act in such a manner against another society it begins to look
>more like two societies in conflict. (As you know I am wary of any
>dealing in the aggregate as a possible misleading step.) But there
>is an implied question.
>
>At what point is this considered a social level action rather than a
>loose collection of individuals?
Any pattern that describes the expected actions of individual bio patterns
is a social pattern. In order for there to be an expectation, there has to
have been enough similar repeats of the interaction to be able to predict
what will happen the next time. Until that time, the interaction is
governed by whatever other social patterns are strongest.
>When do we hold that the society is
>responsible for the actions, as it is now a social movement?
Society is always responsible for the actions of individuals as they relate
to each other. Biology only governs the way that inorganic patterns
interact.
>Excellent question. How many people are required to become a "society?"
"A society" is formed when intellectual patterns form, when there are
expectations about society, when patterns of how people interact are noticed
and they begin to interact with other expectations about society. There has
to be another society for a society to form, if there is only one society,
it doesn't really exist as a society, there is no use for the term. Any
distinct set of expectations of how people interact is a society, as
distinct to another society.
>It's a similar question to what constitutes "rape?" When her hand is on my
knee? When it touches my thigh? When it grabs my crotch? When it unzips my
fly? When? I have no answer.
Argh, I hate this question. Rape is a legal term, and it refers to
something very specific and well defined: nonsonsensual sexual intercourse.
There have been people who have gotten this wrong and expanded the
definition to include anything that offends them, like hands on knees, but
those people are corrupted. Please don't contribute to their corruption.
Keep the word rape meaningful. If the definition should be expanded, it
should be expanded to include the new ways people have invented to take
someone's reproductive choice away from them, such as stealing their sperm
or eggs. It shouldn't be made meaningless by including old crimes that are
already covered by sexual assault laws or assault laws.
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