From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Sun Jul 18 2004 - 21:31:52 BST
DM and all MOQers:
dmb says:
Alienation is the opposite of coherence? Hmmm. I would have thought that...
...historical roots well explored by Pirsig in both books.
Mark 18b-7-04: dmb is confusing things here.
1. Coherence is not a psychological description. Coherence deals with
patterns of value.
2. Alienation, in philosophy, may be applied to anything which is disunited
but should be united.
3. If coherence is harmonious unity, then it's opposite is inharmonious
disunity.
dmb:
Yes, it related to SOM insofar as
scientific materialism alienates us from our psychological and spiritual
selves by denying their importance or even their existence....
Mark 18b-7-04: "Psychological and spiritual selves" in dmb's mouth means Ken
Wilber is not far off...
dmb:
As Ken Wilber puts it,
Mark 18b-7-04: ...and here he is.
Or in the Oxford Encyclopedia of Philosophy...
Mark 18b-7-04: You know the one: The one that has no references to the MOQ in
it.
David M may, if he wishes, apply alienation to concepts such as coherence: a
totality of unified patterns of inorganic, organic, social and intellectual
patterns of sq.
In my view, David M is behaving like a true philosopher here, in that he is
allowing himself to explore without being restricted to old static patterns.
Well done David M. Well done indeed.
dmb:
My point?
The sense of unity one experiences in a state of flow is definately a good
thing, but it is not a cure for alienation in this sense.
Mark 18b-7-04: The sense you provided, not David M.
dmb:
The former is a state of consciousness...
Mark 18b-7-04: Flow supports coherence but coherence is not psychological.
...and the latter is a collective, cultural problem cause by a defect in the
intellectual world view called materialism.
Mark 18b-7-04: In other words, incoherence. Note: the craftsman understands
the value of art. David M is on to this.
dmb:
It strikes me something like trying to shift the mood of a nation by changing
your personal mood. Its like trying to fix the road by driving a good car.
Mark 18b-7-04: If coherence were psychological, which it isn't, then it
would. Flow supports coherence but coherence is not psychological.
dmb says:
Alienation comes from broken hammers and failed projects? No, Dave, that's
just not what alienation means. What you've described is called frustration
which, UNLIKE alienation, IS "fundamentally a matter of whether your
conscious desires are satisfied".
Mark 18b-7-04: If coherence were psychological, which it isn't, then it
would. Flow supports coherence but coherence is not psychological.
As you can see, I have some MAJOR problems
with your answer here. We disagree about the very meaning of the key terms
in play. And since your idea of alienation seems so very far away from the
things Pirsig, Hegel, Marx, (who brought the terms in widespread use.) and
the encyclopedia of philosophy, I would suggest that it is not just a matter
of disagreement. Rather, I think you understand the idea incorrectly.
Thanks.
Mark 18b-7-04: To sum up: dmb mistakenly uses coherence and flow as if they
meant the same thing. (This may be due to dmb's interest in Ken Wilber over the
MOQ)
Flow is a metaphor employed by psychology. Coherence is a philosophical term
used in the MOQ. Coherence as used in the MOQ may be used to describe
engagement at all evolutionary levels. Incoherence would therefore imply alienation.
All the best,
Mark
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