From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jul 29 2004 - 23:18:29 BST
Hi Platt,
>P:
>Societies don't have minds. Individual humans have minds. Paul's
>explanation of the relationship between society and minds is excellent.
Yes, Paul's explanation was good, I agree. I didn't say societies have
minds, that was my point - minds are second level bio patterns, so how can
they be fourth level?
>P:
>I don't care what their motives are. Their acts--killing innocent people--
>are biological. Killing killers is what the social level does, doctors
>against germs, soldiers against terrorists.
Killing killers is just as biological as killing innocent people, and
killing innocent people is just as social as killing killers. Now, I agree
that killing killers is moral and killing innocents is immoral, but they are
all on the same levels.
>P:
> > >Pirsig calls the second level biological. What's individual about it?
>
>J:
> > The individuals. You and I are individual bio patterns. My cat is an
> > individual cat. It is the expected interactions of individual bio
>patterns
> > that form the third level. And it is individual instances of inorganic
> > patterns which interact in expected ways to form the bio level. (But I
> > didn't call the first level the "individual level" because we were
>talking
> > about people. But every level has individual instances of patterns in
>the
> > same way. Individual third level patterns are different societies,
> > individual fourth level patterns are different ideas about society.)
>
>P:
>There are individual electrons at the inorganic level, too. But I'm
>talking about human beings that make up the social and intellectual
>levels. Cats need not apply.
I know we are talking about humans, I made that point. But there are
individual instances of patterns on every level. The individual patterns
you are talking about - humans - are at the bio level, along with cats.
>J:
> > > > When the individuals interact, you get
> > > > third level patterns, when third level patterns interact, you get
> > > > fourth level patterns.
>
>P:
> > >How do you define "fourth level patterns?"
>
>J:
> > Expectations ABOUT society that come about through the repeated
> > interactions of social level patterns. (I reserve the right to refine
> > that, but that gets the drift)
>
>P:
>Sorry, I don't get it. Where does the mind of a human being come in?
Mind as in consciousness? They participate in repeating moral patterns in
order to experience the value from expectations beng realized, and they
experience it through the apex or focus of a human being's brain. Minds
repeat every pattern, including rocks and democracy.
>J:
> > > > Sure, they
> > > > are propogated by consciousnesses, but so are patterns of every
>level.
>
>P:
> > >Huh?
>
>J:
> > The pattern of a rock, and the pattern of gravity, the pattern of big
>fish
> > eatng little fish, are all propogated by consciousness, and also
>propogate
> > consciousness. There can be no consciousness without a pattern for the
> > consciousness to be conscious of, nor can there be a pattern without a
> > consciousness conscious of it.
>
>P:
>You're describing the dualism of subject-object, claiming there can be no
>object without a subject and vice versa. In the MOQ, consciousness,
>patterns, subjects, objects and all such divisions and labels are
>secondary to experience or Quality.
Right, Quality does create both, I should have said that. It is from and
according to Quality or Morality that both the consciousness and the pattern
that consciousness is conscious of are created.
>Anyway, do you really believe your
>existence depends on someone (a consciousness) observing you?
Yes, but I don't believe that someone has a choice but to observe me,
because his observation is secondary to the experience of Quality, and
Quality orignates his observation. The pattern of me exists in Morality, so
I will be observed when Moraity creates both the consciousness that observes
me and the pattern (me) that is being observed.
Johnny
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