Jonathan and all: It seems that these issues are about something important,
but I can't put my finger on it. JM is responding to the idea of NOT
trashing subjects objects altogether, how they compare to static patterns
and some other fancy stuff like the nature of time. There is also some huge
explosions and full frontal nudity. Not really....
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Marder [SMTP:marder@agri.huji.ac.il]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 8:33 AM
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD Chapter eight
>
>
>
> What it comes down to is that the 4-layers of patterns is a tool, not an
> ontology. The only ontology in the MoQ is the Quality idea itself, and
> that
> originates from ZAMM, not Lila. Furthermore, this ontology is appealing as
> a
> base both for SOT and the MoQ in whatever combination.
>
[David Buchanan] Hmmm. Well, it seems to be that Quality or DQ is a
mystery. It can't be defined and so it can't fit into ontological
categories. I mean, Quality isn't a thing and ontological schemes are about
"things". Here's a few words about ontology from the Oxford Companion to
Philosophy...
"Ontology, understood as a branch of metaphysics, is the science of
BEING in general, embracing such issues as the nature of EXISTENCE and the
categorical stucture structre of reality. That existing THINGS belong to
different categories is an idea traceable at least back to Aristotle.
Different systems of ontology propose alternative categorial schemes. A
categorial scheme typically exhibits a hierarchical structure, with "being
or "entity" as the topmost category, embracing everthing that exists."
The encyclopedia goes on to sketch the various schemes, but I won't
bore you.
> DAVID B. asked:
> How about this Johathan; TIME itself is a static pattern of inorganic
> values.
>
> That's a biggie! Time has caused philosophers endless (-:) problems. Kant
> regarded Time and Space as absolutes intrinsically perceived. This he
> contrasted with other extrinsic perceptions which arise empirically from
> interaction of man with his surroundings. Kant's approach fitted well with
> the deterministic mechanics of his time, but Einstein's relativity of
> space
> and time put an end to all that.
>
[David Buchanan] Right. There's no doubt about it. Kant was a
staggering genius, but Einstein changed everything. But I think Kant's area
was really epistemology and he considered time to be a CATEGORY of
Perception. Sort of like a built-in setting for our sensory ograns filter
reality. Certainly was an SOM view, eh? Anyway, its possible that you mixed
up ontological categories with epistemological or perceptual issues.
Definitely connents, but very different branches of metaphysics. You know.
> Pirsig clearly states that Inorganic PoV
> are equivalent to matter. Time and space are NOT matter, but they have
> meaning in the relationships between bits of matter - actually that's
> their
> ONLY meaning. Einstein himself declared that time is "what clocks
> measure".
>
[David Buchanan] Hmmm. As I understand it, time, space, matter and
energy are so inter-related that we can think of them as different
manifestations of the same mystery. The theory of relativity and his famous
equation, E=mc2, paint it this way. We all know the equation means that
Energy and Mass are interchangable and the there is a precise amount of
energy in any given mass. Atomic bombs demonstrate that we can, in effect,
get sunlight out of rocks. That's amazing enough, but the really cool part
of the equation is the c2. It shows that the amount of energy in the mass is
directly proportional to the speed of light, which of course is a time/space
thing. So you can see the universe in this little equation. Time, space,
matter and energy are all interchangable, inter-related and equivilant to
each other in a very profound way.
Thanks for your time. DMB
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