----- Original Message -----
From: David Prince <deprince@bellsouth.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: MD MEMES -- Are memes with bad people bad memes?
> Dave:
> Individuals need to change. How do you change a child's behavior? Do you
> tell him to change and assume that he/she can by mere choice? Or do you
> train him to change? Do you assume resposibility for changing a child?
Now,
> after 18 years of training by society, do you believe that this same child
> could just change his/her behavior instantly? Why is it suddenly his/her
> responsibility?
<< Due to certain rules in that society, obviously, but you are right Dave,
why
is it suddenly his/ her responsibilty !? Again, I wish to reply with the
issue of
the meme- eye view. If we take the idea for granted that our memes and our
genes act upon their own behalf, why should we bother at all, that they act
without responsibility before we are 18 years old. It is just a bunch of
rules
holding society together. Change the rules, account for the idea that our
memes
killed the poor guy, not we ! We will be punished if we broke the rules that
enhenced us to do something against those meme- defects.
The responsibility is our to take and to make. You give people the choise
between choosing out of their own free will or by force.
The collective of the society will always choose in its own interest, it
will give
you the choise, but if you don 't take what she offers you gonna get it !!
> Dave:
> How many people in our society believe in self-determination? I'd say its
> close to being unanimous. If we all believed that people had no choice in
> their actions, how would that change our views on punishment? Why would I
> even want to punish someone if I knew they had no choice? I guess just to
> make me feel better.
<< That is just the point I wanna make, thanks Dave !! People do make
choises, out of free will or not. Why should you punish a poor lad who have
all the possible meme- defects, maybe to make you feel better, but also due
to certain habits of society which are now still running.
A memetic view is a view upon the future, forget the old statements about
punishment, revenge and retaliation. In principle they will be not existent,
due
to the fact that they will be wiped out by interventions on the meme- level
of
the individual. Society must be mapped in such a way that all of its people
have access to those technologies to change their defects.
But, I am not naive, a certain responsibility of the individual will be
needed, and the first step is empowering people to show responsibility, and
there you have
the same old discussion once again...
> Dave:
> Obviously the idea that one has free will is part of the environment that
> shapes a persons behavior. As such, it is a positive influence on
behavior.
> If I think that there is absolutely nothing I can do about my situation,
> then I get depressed. However, if people tell me that I can do better,
that
> I am empowered, it helps me. So a middle way might be a good approach.
<< YES !!
> My problem is really with punishment. I think that society uses choice as
an
> excuse to punish, and as an excuse not to help. I mean, if those people in
> Africa would just get off their asses, maybe they could have more. You
know?
<< That is just the problem, society gives a choise. But it is a choise made
upon a " collective " agreement, where upon all individuals have to answer
when something goes wrong. But it is not an " individual " choise.
I am trying to set up the basic lines for what I call a memetic philosophy,
and
one of those lines, and the most important of all is that of individuality,
genetic
and memetic. Memetics is the individual his philosophy, a new home for meta-
physics, a new bias where upon we can (re)write the history of men.
As long we hold on to the collective bias of our society you gonna get such
troubles. Society exist not out some weird acting collective but out of
true,
fleshy individuals. The collective, and that 's we, forgets this...
And in Africa, they can 't get off their asses, their memes are working
against
them, individual and collective.
That is something I don 't understand, if a people is starving why they not
all
stand up and leave their leaders behind. What will the leaders do, kill them
all ?
Same question, another case, people are mistreated by flaws in the laws, in-
stead of holding eachother and walk straight thru' the frontdoor, they all
sit
down quitely and do nothing. Where is suddenly the collective gone to ?
Suddenly they all think " individualistic ". Strange creatures we are,
indeed !!
And I don 't think this really helps...
Regards,
Kenneth
(I am, because we are)
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