ROGER MAY NOT BE THE ANTICHRIST, BUT HE IS SURELY A MISCHIEVIOUS IMP
To separate old postage from new I use ROG for my old stuff and ROGER for the
new.....
ROG WROTE:
But as parts of the system, it is essential that the individual needs
changing too. People aren't just products of society, society is also a
product of people.
Dave RESPONDED:
Individuals need to change. How do you change a child's behavior? Do you
tell him to change and assume that he/she can by mere choice? Or do you
train him to change? Do you assume resposibility for changing a child? Now,
after 18 years of training by society, do you believe that this same child
could just change his/her behavior instantly? Why is it suddenly his/her
responsibility?
ROGER:
I was stressing the importance of both.
Dave WROTE:
If I am accountable for my actions, that means that I must be willing to
assume consequences for them. Extreme case: I am crippled, I must assume
accountability for my being crippled and expect no different treatment.
ROGER:
Huh? What rational reason would someone hold someone accountable for
something beyond their control? Why are you writing this?
Dave WROTE:
How many people in our society believe in self-determination? I'd say its
close to being unanimous. If we all believed that people had no choice in
their actions, how would that change our views on punishment? Why would I
even want to punish someone if I knew they had no choice? I guess just to
make me feel better.
ROGER:
I don't know, why would you? Is this a riddle? Or a Zen Koan?
Dave:
If we make society accountable in any way, then we are certainly assuming a
middle position, to which I am not opposed. I think I can show that there is
no such thing as total free will (I can define behaviors that you cannot do,
no matter how much you want.)
ROGER:
I didn't realize I was espousing a view of universal omniscience. You would
be correct in categorizing such a view as (I believe the clinical term is)
"goofy".
DAVE WROTE:
Obviously the idea that one has free will is part of the environment that
shapes a persons behavior. As such, it is a positive influence on behavior.
If I think that there is absolutely nothing I can do about my situation,
then I get depressed. However, if people tell me that I can do better, that
I am empowered, it helps me. So a middle way might be a good approach.
My problem is really with punishment. I think that society uses choice as an
excuse to punish, and as an excuse not to help. I mean, if those people in
Africa would just get off their asses, maybe they could have more. You know?
ROGER:
Ah, I see. So you were using my post on the dualistic illusion of memetic
free will/ determinism to explain your "problem with punishment".
Personally, I am not much of an advocate for sadism. But then again, you
won't find me volunteering with you for the next Peace Corp mission either.
Do let me know how it goes though......
Roger
PS -- Thx for the clarification on Skinner. I feel much better about raising
my child in an "heir-conditioner' box now.
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