----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan B. Marder <jonathan.marder@newmail.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 9:17 AM
Subject: MD A WAVE from Jonathan
> This follows from the thread "Re: MD Genes, Memes, Darwin and Platt"
>
> (The "WAVE" part comes a few paragraphs down)
> Personally, I find this thread highly relevant to the MoQ. Pirsig
> himself said he considers MoQ to be much bigger than Lila and ZAMM. By
> his estimate, those two novels gave us only a few percent. Thus, the
> fact that Pirsig never talked about memes by name doesn't mean that we
> shouldn't. I think it might be very useful and enlightening to try and
> decide whether memes are biological or social patterns of value. IMO the
> answer is both.
<< What I have read so far, concerning Pirsig and the two novels he wrote,
seem to me very comparable with what we discuss in memetics.
In MOQ the guideline is Pirsig, in memetics Dawkins.
In MOQ you speak about Quality, Value, Good, Evolution, Organic,
Intellect,...we have a lot to say about Meaning, Sameness, Difference,
Genes,
Ethics,...
On the other hand, what there seems to be missing by MOQ, is the existence
of compatible disciplines. That is, memetics can be applied into all sort of
practical relevancy. Metaphysics, philosophers, engineers, computerfreaks,
biologists,...apply memetical patterns in their investigations to understand
culture/ society and humankind better.
I do understand that with the books in hand you can do the same, but it
seems to me that the impact on a scientific level will be low...
Or its Forum is that the place to be...?
Or, can you built in Pirsig his insights into existent disciplines, like
memetics ?
> KENNETH
> >On the memetic list we agreed that memes resides in the brain. But we
> also agreed upon the fact that we no longer need the analogy between
genes and memes.
> If that is true, memes would be a Biological PoV. However, it seems to
> deny patterns arising out of communities. Aren't there also collective
> memes belonging to families, tribes and large societies?
<< Of course there are collective memes ! You can see Nationalism as one.
But, I do see more in things like specific traits connected with persons,
countries, communities and tribes.
Tribes, costumes of the Indian people, behavior, way of life, beliefs of
that
people can count as collective memes. Wearing feathers is automatically
associated with Indians. Beautiful memes there.
Persons, rockartists, directly popmusic is associated with sex, drugs and
rock and roll. Great meme !!
Communities, Quakers, the Amish,... are directly connected with specific
ways of living.( Aaron Lynch made an inquiry into the habits of the
Amish,I think.) Also sekts, gipsies,...all do have specific memes directly
connected to them.
Countries, USA, land of the democracy. Israel, land of promise.
Also Frensh fries, Brussels wafles, Delfts blue...great memes.
Italia, maffiosi. All what is connected to prejudice can count...bad memes.
All this can be described as being Bait, Hook or Treat, the parts promises
to benefit the host, also security, prosperity, freedom...Quality/ Value...
> (Pls. correct any errors - I admit to being ignorant on memetics). In
> Lila, Pirsig talks about New York City as some sort of a living entity
> (the giant). Does it have memes?
<< See, here the two lists coincide !!
Yes, of course New York City, The giant would have memes ! And very
strong ones indeed!!
You only have to look at the fact for what NYC stands for_a Giant center-
point for the USA !
The skyline of Manhattan and the Statue of Liberty are the international
symbols of the city.
Almost all the worlds nationalities are there, already in 1850 18 !
languages
were spoken there.
New York is one of the most important industrial, financial and economical
centra of the world. Wallstreet !? The New York Stock Exchange !?
Also New York is famous for its nightlife, Fun City...The Big Apple !
Broadway of course. Important for the notion of America's Nationalism_
the ever first American president George Washington was initiated there.
>From all this, from all possible angles, from all possible situations memes
are coming down in their hundreds.
Pirsig was right, NYC is a living entity_but from my humble human point
of view an ' impossoble ' one...it never sleeps !
How can you wake up in a city which doesn 't sleep...
SiNaTra
Many regards,
Kenneth
( I am, because we are) finally connected
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