HiKenneth, Hi All,
Thanks for your reply. About a similar aspect of society, I have been, say,
forced to think about lately. A few weeks ago, there has been a raping of woman
on the area of our University. Sadly there are lots of rapes everyday all over
the world, but when it happens in your town or even 'near' (mentally near) your
social environment, than it evokes a stronger feeling of grief. Our University
has lots of foreign students (concerning this it is ranging near the top in
between Germany), aprr. 15 percent or so, and many of them live in special
apartments - exclusively for foreign students - near the campus. A young woman
from Mexico has been raped in a most brutal way. She even had to stay in the
hospital for a certain time for physical injuring, not to mention the damage to
her personality.
And I just kept thinking, WHAT'S GOING ON IN SUCH A DEVIL OF A MAN??
By that time I started to think about all these things, can be found in my
articles (value-being and the like..) and I tried to figure out, what COULD be
responsible for such a deed. In the end, it will remain not understandable
fully, I guess, but there are other things, that could not be understand fully
as well (e.g. 3rd Reich).
That lead me to an idea, I called later on 'destabilization', in which I define
some aspects, that could perhaps be also responsible for the sudden failing of
not only intellectual agents in an individuals personality, but also the social
ones. In a way it is an outburst of it's supressed biological side in this
moment, when the last 'social fuse' has failed, besides I consider such an
outburst of the biological side of man, as absolutely not normal, even when
social and intellectual agents are weak or not existent, so I stress the
adjective 'supressed' in the above. It may help to have a look at our nearby
evolutionary 'relatives', such as hominids, especially chimpanzees and bonobos,
I do not know yet.
For example I see also a sort of 'intended failing' of those 'fuses' in the case
of soldiers during a war.
This zone of destabilization is entered, when an individual's social and
intellectual characteristics are melting down, just like ice in the sun, and
could not be repaired or filled up again. This process equals a loss of
integrity of an individuals constitution; referring to my model of the
'value-being' it sinks deeper an deeper concerning the capacity of it's leading
dimension, the intellectual value patterns. This 'sinking' relates to the
(intellectual) environment, i.e. the intellectual value patterns of adjacent
value-beings, other humans. So, it leads to a feeling of being less 'distinct'
from other humans also.
I must admid, that this would not explain the named outburst, when not in the
same the social value patterns get also lessened.
If we have to consider the social level to be completely independent from the
superimposing intellectual level, of which I'm still not yet convinced, than it
is a, more or less useless explanation (value-being), I must admit.
And also I consider this process of 'melting down' as socially evoked,
primarily. Only when I assume, like Pirsig says also (I started 'Lila' again
yesterday), that in western socities social value pattern has been dismantled
by, what he calls, the intellectual class since World War I, than it works at
least somehow.
Now such a 'value-distortion' can take place, when conditions of destabilization
have their dominant influence on many people, say segregated areas in a society
(or even whole societies), as it seems to be the case in South Africa, that
build a society in between a society, a sub-system, it may be able to find a
'local stability'. In that case, absurd as it is, it can develop into a sort of
local social norm, which in turn stabilizes the social patterns of an individual
living in such an area and furtermore hinders it to get back to, what we would
call 'normal social norms'.
> Kenneth Van Oost wrote:
>
> Johannes, here as promised the extract...
>
> I will attempt to clearify some extreme situations of child-
> and sexual
> abuse, victimization, sexual exploitation, violence and systematic rape on the
> basis of by Dr. Jesserun coined idea of a Social- relation- Tranfer.
> Especially in South- Africa is the situation so serious that we can easily say
> it
> is of epidemic proportions. As far as today the authorities aren 't capable to
> see
> throught the issue. Forced by its size and also by the fact that noone and any
> social class escapes from its powers, only at the local level there was made
> some progress. The problem is so vast, is so profound, touches so many people
> that indeed we can ask the question if childabuse, -rape and -muder (as
> precise
> that) do increase or that by circumstances the regulation / the memetic field
> to
> avoid childabuse, sexual exploitation, violence, muder and incest didn 't
> cross the
> bounderie of what is needed and of what is acceptable and ought to be !?
> Is there talk of some Social- Relation- Tranfer !?
>
> In the concept of the memetic definition given by Dawkins it means that in
> analogy
> with our genes that ideas/ dispositions/ opinions/ experiences/ laws etc are
> stuck against/ to the bounderies of their proper construct, they are
> restricted to the
> intellectual position of the memetic/ Quality field to which they appeal.
> In memetic terms, it is a bounderie which memes do not cross_the outlines are
> stipulated by other meme- complexes which might exist within othere memetic-
> structures which are not strong enough to be replicated_ we are lacking some
> fundamental memetic/ Quality insight to take acceptance of child- and toddlre-
> abuse to a higher intellectual standard to regulate them.
>
> Did the violence cross the outskirts of its own social perception, and are
> sexual
> exploitation, muder and incest now not to be found upon an acceptable social
> level !?
> If indeed they are, than the reason why depends upon the memetical and La-
> marckian ommipresence of the violence, of the disagreement_ of the need, the
> strive to rape, to commit murder, to exploite people sexually, to be
> incestuous
> and the memetical/ Qualitative need, strive to mistreat toddlers and children.
>
> Thus the more ( and faster), in the case ( the memes/ the Quality) of violence
> is (are) added into the already inclosed and disabled of South- Africa, the
> more
> ( creative and faster) memetic/ Qualitative ( social) patterns, as a result of
> speedin' up of a actor ( imitation/ repetition) are capable to developed
> themsel-
> ves into new habits.
>
> So, the more the Qualitative forms under which violence is present in the
> society
> of South- Africa, how creative man becomes to take violence into action, how
> faster the ( memetic) forms are replicated and do become new forms of social
> intercourse.
>
> The history of South- Africa points out just that.
> It is clear that the the notorious system of Apartheid did stir up the violent
> resis-
> tence of the coloured population.
> Why should the fundamental principle of self- preservation and the principle
> towards ( social) survival not take care of itsown by combining the violence
> into
> a structure of consciousness, then a memeplex of Quality, by which the orga-
> nism ( here the individual) with the passin' of time should accept violence
> as a
> social/ aesthetical/ memetical/ Qualitative trait !?
> Why should the principle not developed ( more creative) traits wherein humans
> take up ( faster) the weapens of violence to settle their differents !?
>
> This is very likely to happen, the violence, the strives towards murder, the
> into-
> lerance, the disagreement, the discrimination, the seperation, the hate, the
> pain,
> the sarrow, the agression,...should increase and continually become faster and
> faster_ out of disappointment, due to frustration, untold misery, pain and
> sarros,
> due to the knowing/ to the realisation that nothing can be done without
> violence
> it is possible that the pattern, the Qualitative form, the memetical appeal of
> violence developed itself more and still faster, into a social trait.
>
> I mean by all this, that mostly man in South-Africa which lived in an abnormal
> country in an abnormal time have in fact no choise.
> Everything in those days was settled by violence, rape and murder.
> That became an inherited and evolutionary trait/ habit.
> See the time needed for that, between 1945 when Apartheid was confirmed as
> the political system and say 1990, there are about 3 generations, in my book
> it
> is perfectly possible that it happened that way_ Lamarckian way that is.
> South- Africa man, with no job, no house, no wife, no future, no money to
> spend
> a few hours in the whorehouse became frustrated, rapin ' woman to satisfied
> their
> needs was an option but not a very good one.
> Those woman could talk, could resist, could get them in prison...the only
> solution
> those man have, IMO of course were children, noone would believe them, they
> were weak and little and vulnerable.
> But of course, not only children were their victims, also adult woman and
> little
> girls were raped and murdered. To get satisfied their needs noone was save...
> Sexual violence is/ was in South- Africa a problem.
> IMO, the restricting to rape, muder and commit incest was lost by adding great
> proportions of violence into the society, it became in a sense a Qualitative
> trait
> by which first like you mention a Value- distortion occured but also a social-
> relation tranfer took place. That is violence became a cultural/ social trait
> which
> became accepted in South- Africa but by which the laws of the country could
> not
> held up. Therefor still man were punished and imprisoned.
>
> Hope this helps, if you need more about this give me a sign...
>
> Regards,
>
> Kenneth
A short comment on the 'german topic', because I can't stay with MD/MF for much
longer, I feel (not for this reason, solely personal ones!).
I apologize for my somehow exaggerated reaction on you mentioning the
'volksgeist'. I mainly agree to your writings on this; only what you said
reminded me of the Goldstein book, which has been written with good intention
surely, but unfortunately escapes from the enormity of evil having been done in
the name of the german people - as I said, I for myself still cannot grasp all
this - into some obscure explanation about a solely german character trait, if I
remember correctly.
I have not read it, but I got to read some important passages from it in the
'Spiegel'-magazin, which is known as everything else than superficial, I may
say. And for me a as a German it is not easy to take, to be said 'Germans are
bad until eternity'. Therefore I'm a bit oversensitive on topics like this.
Something like this seemed to be clinging in your article too, but now I see
that I was wrong in assuming so. In fact, I'd like to exchange about this and
related topics, but I have difficulties with implicit, only vaguely visible
opinions. On the other hand I won't stir up the soup, if this is not wished by
the members of this list.
Wish you all well, thanks for reading and grateful for comments,
regards,
JoVo
countdown: 10
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