Hi Sam!!
ROG:
> OK, I will ask....
>
> Exactly how is it that we suppressed economic advancement in all these
> countries over the past 4000 years or so? What needs explaining is why
> free enterprise democracies have been so successful since their creation
(and
> the answer wasn't exploitation), not why primitive societies stayed that
> way.(If you want the lesson I can provide it)
The answer to this question has been given in a number of recent books; I'll
point to two: Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond, and The Wealth and
Poverty of Nations by David Landes. The answer comes in two parts - the
first is luck, the second is high quality culture. The luck comes from the
fact that Europe benefited from a number of geographical and ecological
quirks - temperate climate, high differentiation within a small area, the
availability of useful animals that could be domesticated (cattle, sheep and
horses). The combination of attributes in Europe did not exist anywhere
else - that is luck, not virtue. The high quality culture embodies things
like rule of law, respect for property rights, openness to democratic (and
therefore DQ) change and so on and so forth. This is virtue, not luck.
ROG:
I am glad you brought up Jared Diamond. He is one of the most influential
writers affecting my beliefs. I agree with him on all you write, and would
accentuate the importance of competition and variation of ideas and the
avoidance of a consolidated empire, where only one set of beliefs can
prevail. The rugged and broken coast of western Europe allowed competitive
nation states to avoid the group think of a united empire. Similarly, the
breakout of the US into 50 test labs that could experiment, yet had to
cooperate together in certain important ways contributed to their dynamic
success. In his studies of consolidated empires, Jared found that good ideas
were invariably suppressed. R Wrights NONZERO is another great book covering
similar ground. I will order the other book you suggest asap -- I have heard
good commentary on it before too.
Good points on Iraq btw. (But, the best cure for debt payments imo is to
avoid borrowing -- I think that is why Bush has been suggesting that we stop
"lending" and just acknowledge that they are gifts)
SAM:
BTW I spelt out some of my thinking as 'four theses' because I wanted to
make it clear, and make each part open to separate comments or corrections.
Platt or Rog or anyone else want to have a go at the specifics? I feel that
each time you say 'US is wonderful' I want to agree and then say that it is
missing the point. It is because the US is such a strong nation in so many
ways - and the people are so innately generous as individuals - that the
best hope for a good outcome from the present crisis is for the US to live
up to its own best ideals, not its worst practices. Acknowledging shades of
grey in the US self-image is surely something that can take place in the
context of MOQ discussion?
ROG:
I try to avoid the internet during the week.
"You know, like I am doin' Prozac, drivin' rageful, watching Britney and
listenin to Rage Against the Machine all day with my fellow Americans!!!
(Just kidding Gerhard).
However, I will print them off and see what I can have a go at.....
have a good day!
Rog
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