Hi Angus (Jae mentioned) and Group.
You wrote the seventh of Nov.: (to Jae >>)
> I don't agree (w)holy with what you say.
> > That ancient rift between the spiritual and the
> > physical worlds is what
> > divides what we call Eastern and Western thought.
> I would offer a re-interpretation of this almost
> "cliche" version of East vs. West. What did the birth
> of science as fostered by Descartes do? What was his
> really deep insight? Method. And what is scientific
> method? It was that you could offer up a "model" that
> went against personal observation. If we go by
> observation and our senses as the Western man is
> supposedly castigated to, then the Sun revolves around
> the earth. What was brilliant about Descartes was that
> he showed how the world is not as it seems. That it is
> "maya." And that you can make a hypothesis, gather
> data, compare it and analyze it, and modify your
> hypothesis. The BELIEF that the mind deceives is the
> heart of "cogito ergo sum" and the heart of the
> scientific mind. Kant then came along and labelled
> what Descartes did. There is "phenomena", things as
> they appear, and there is "noumena", the things in
> themselves. Now, whether you label phenomena as
> "physical" and noumena as "spiritual" is up to you.
> But the West has a radical faith in the "non physical"
> as all of science is based on the belief that the
> senses deceive and thus you have the scientific
> method. Descartes marks a addition to rational
> thinking and introduces irrational thinking, or deep
> scepticism.
I think you are just right in this reminder to Jae. Jonathan and I had
come to the profound conclusion that "Eurasian" culture represent
the idea of a God separate from His (created) World, this in
contrast to the animated world of all "natural religions". This overall
evolution which in the Middle East took on a God/World quality had
a counterpart at the Hellenic shore which is described by Pirsig as
the emergence of the subject/object metaphysics.
To stay in this grand view mode: The development which was to
become the scientific era - starting with Descartes - was the re-
opening of the Greek "issue", and you are right in pointing to it as
not an emphasizing of the physical, but rather of the
spiritual/physical divide itself. Kant's role is also correctly
presented (as far as I know) even if there was some more thinkers
involved ...Berkeley, Hobbes, Hume ...The important point is that
by Kant the S/O divide was made completely "shockproof" ...and
later philosophy became mere footnotes to Kant ........ UNTIL
PIRSIG that is!!!!!!!
Your above thesis I agree 100% with, but the one about Derrida,
Wittgenstein and Pirsig (being birds of a feather) I disagree with the
same percentage :-) However, this is such a big issue that it can't
be addressed here ...God, we have been at it for five years now!!!
An aside. Jae said:
> l say that the spiritual/physical divide ABSOLUTELY
> DOESN'T EXISTS IN JEWISH THOUGHT. In modern Jewish practice it may,
> but kabalah DOES INFACT bridge this ancient rift, the reason why I
> left my Taoist leanings was my finding of this essential Jewish fact.
> When I came to Israel my intention was to be utterly secular, and I
> was for a year, but this series of study has lead me back to a (at
> least somewhat at this point) religous life, and I encourage you all
> to ask me questions about these links I've found in Kabalah between
> the physical and spiritual and physical worlds. I'm not saying I've
> found 'the truth' or 'the way', cause I don't think these things
> exist, and far be it from me to impose my way of thou
> ght on anyone else, so if you ask me things I will attempt to explain
> them, but I'm not going to go on about this without being asked - just
> wanted to put this out here now.
According to the agreement that Jonathan and Iarrived at, the East-
Eurasian divide became a God/World one while the West-Eurasian
developed into the psychic/physical divide (S/O with its countless
off-shoots). Accordingly, I believe you when you say that there is
no spiritual/physical division in Jewish thought ...nor is there any
in Islamic thought - or WAS any in old Christendom.
Bo
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