Rob:
My name is Trip Powers and I am new to this list because I am going to use ZAMM in my
philosophy class. I also teach economics so capitalism is often debated within the
confines of my classroom.
One of my friends said "I would like to see capitalism, totally unfettered, work,
because it has never been truly tried." I found this comment interesting and I always
keep it in mind when discussion flaws in the current system.
Initially I must disagree with your optimistic view of global problems. I want to
believe that technology and the ultimate necessity of changing our patterns of behavior
will enter the marketplace and the dynamic force, as you put it, will work to solve
those problems. However, I do believe that world population, resourse use and abuse,
and environmental problems will occur faster than the market will allow. What appears
to me to be the greatest problem isn't the functioning of the marketplace, but the
measurements we use to define the health of our economy. The GNP is a lousy
measeurment. Check out the Redefining Progress website (of the same name I believe)
for a more complete analysis. For our purposes a short list will suffice. The current
measurement encourages inefficient behavior becasue it rewards the use of non-renewable
resources.
* It is better for our economy to drive, alone, in our cars (SUV's are even better)
than to walk, ride a bike, take public transit, or car pool, because the increased
fuel usage, increased road work, increased accidents! all help the economy
according to the current measurement.
* Divorce is actually good for our economy becasue one household has to become two
with all their individual goods.
* Environmental disasters (Valdez) are actually good for our economy because of all
the resources needed to clean it up, not to mention the lawyers and court fees.
There are many more examples. Capitalism, which has given use incredible technological
breakthoughs, is tied to this arcane system of measurement that IMO, holds it back.
This measurement was created to help grow the economy back in the 50's during the Cold
War to ensure we could continue to spend money on the arms race.
Some other criticisms of MODERN capitalism. (Post WWII - linked closely to the Cold
War)
* The major industries(Air, car, now utilities and etc.) are controlled by a very
few interests becasue they function best with some sort of controlled planning.
It is very easy for these interests to collude and evade anti-trust laws. Some
things, like public transit, are best left to government control.
* Our giant corporate interests OWN their own news divisions.
* Our gap between rich and poor is dramatically more than any other industrialized
nation
* We, due to the pressure to grow our economy, commit horrendous human rights abuses
worldwide, not to mention the destabilizing effect our CIA has had on thrid world
development.
* The effect of big money from labor and corporations is to weaken democracy at the
expense of capitalism. The power over our lives is decreasing except for
artificial things like appearance. What real choices do we have. We either join
their system or get hounded by the police or other government agencies.
* Capitalism is a very inefficient method for many things: including child+elderly
care; taken out of the home where very few resources had to be used - to nursing
homes and child care centers where many have to be. Think of the government red
tape, the driving to and fro. Why did this change happen: because modern
parents/adult children, don't have the emotional energy or time. Our lives, spent
making a buck, don't allow this. The nuclear family is very ineffiecent. Group
housing projects here in Portland consume 50% of what normal homes do, simply by
sharing tasks for "free".
Rob, I appreciated the cogency of you thoughts about how this relates to quality. The
true test of a government and an economic system is the quality of life of its citizens
and we have replaced that with economic growth. I look forward to your reply.
Trip Powers
Teacher
For arguments sake
Rob D wrote:
> Hey All,
> I'm going to be "the MAN" here and defend capitalism. Too many people have
> been hacking away at it without any real definite arguments. I say lay it
> down on the table. I also challenge you to think up something better,
> because obviously no system is perfect.
>
> Capitalism is dynamic.
>
> If you don't like the behavior of a company, vote with your wallet. Don't
> buy their product. Support eco friendly companies. The power is in YOUR
> hands, like democracy, that is the beauty of capitalism. You might not think
> your vote counts for enough, but it does count. Capitalism has no rules, no
> bad guys, no good guys. Capitalism is only as bad as the people that buy the
> gas guzzling SUV's. Like life, if there is an opportunity, a company will
> fill the void. That's why it works according to the MOQ, because it is SO
> dynamic.
>
> You may claim that capitalism causes people to be short sighted about
> resources. But remember, if you don't use a resource now, someone else will
> use it later. Like the last cookie in the jar, would you rather eat it or
> leave it for someone else? Your issue is with human nature, something nobody
> has the power to change, not with capitalism itself. Capitalism is all about
> human nature. If nobody wants it, what's the point in even worrying about
> that resource?
>
> Also, the earth will go on just fine with more CO2 in the air, how do you
> think all the carbon got under the ground in the first place? It came from
> the air, and into plants from long ago. It's the same people who drive their
> Ford Expedition to work and back every day that will pay the consequence if
> our beach resorts get flooded. To the earth it's less than a blip on the
> scale of global catastrophes. We will find alternate resources when we run
> out, and we will probably switch to more eco-friendly ones way before we do
> because of people like you and I who think it's worth the $ to feel good
> about ourselves. If not, when all the water starts rising, Dykecorp will
> fill the void.
> Capitalism is a game to put food on your plate and a computer on your desk
> and a car in your driveway, competition makes it as efficient in (expensive)
> resources as possible. Capitalism does the trick and with less waste than
> any other method we know. What's the problem with that? Would you rather
> have to go hunting or farm every time you wanted something to eat? How
> inefficient is that if you're the best shoemaker in the world? Keep making
> shoes, the farmers will buy your shoes and you'll buy their food.
>
> I want to hear arguments ladies and gents. You are questioning something as
> fundamental to me as democracy. As Churchill said, "It may not be perfect,
> but it's the best thing we know".
>
> Rob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com
> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 6:47 PM
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD Moral development
>
> Hi there,
> I am assuming you have confused me with someone else here?
> Not sure about that so please forgive me? ;)
>
> As for me being a latent socialist or anything else for that matter, i would
> support social structures for the benefit of social order.
> If that makes me a socialist, so be it?
>
> I personally dislike capitalism.
> I also understand that capitalism can be creative, but too many die in the
> process; too many live in false consciousness for it? Too much finite
> resource plundered?
>
> The money machine behind the likes of Wilbur promote personal gain ahead of
> true intellectual development.
> And it's not Moral either?
>
> All the best,
> Squonk.
>
> In a message dated 11/19/01 11:23:24 PM GMT Standard Time, dlt44@ipa.net
> writes:
>
> << Subj: Re: MD Moral development
> Date: 11/19/01 11:23:24 PM GMT Standard Time
> From: dlt44@ipa.net (3dwavedave)
> Sender: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> Reply-to: moq_discuss@moq.org
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>
> To Squonk and all other latent socialists.
>
> Before you slink off you might help yourself unlock the mystery of
> capitalism with, what else: The Mystery of Capital by Hernado de Soto
> Hernando de Soto, a Peruvian, is President of the Institute for Liberty
> and Democracy (Lima) and a former economic and political advisor to the
> president of Peru. He is also the author of The Other Path: The
> Invisible Revolution in the Third World (New York: Harper and Row,
> 1989).
>
> Though Horse may gag, here is a link to an article on the IMF site.
> >>
>
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