Hi again Trip!
TRIP:
Actually, the concept of human nature was created by
enlightenment philosophers (Locke, Hobbes) largely as a
justification for economic inequality as they were the ones
beginning to amass wealth by commerce!
ROG:
I really want to apologize, but you are doing it again. I need you to
provide support of this statement. I also need to introduce you to my friend
Wim (also in this forum). He too is very pre-occupied with "justification"
of wealth. I don't find people pining over justification for health or
intelligence or other forms of quality. Why all this focus on justifying
wealth? My theory is that it comes from a complete misconception that wealth
is a zero-sum process and that to have it one must take it. I find this to
be very untrue, and would be willing to share why if you are interested...
TRIP:
Hobbes state of
nature was his imagination of how hunters and gatherers
lived, not an anthropological study, which we now have.
Their lives were actually very very different from Hobbes
imaginaton. Nasty brutish and short decribes medieval
Europe, not he Kalihari Bushmen or the Navajo. Human Nature
therefor, was a concept created using only about 1% of the
availablke data.
ROG:
Hunter gathererers (studied by anthropologists) did too lead short and brutal
lives. The average life expectancy in the stone age was 21 years, and the
best estimates are that half of all children died by age 5. As for nasty,
the leading cause of death for most tribal or band societies studied by
modern anthropologists is murder. (per Jared Diamond)
Now, I have to admit that I have yet to read Hobbes -- at least directly --
but he is on my list. The weird thing is that I am not sure why looking at
hunter-gatherers is even expected to lead to "human nature". Is the theory
that these aren't cultures? Or that they have less cultural impact on human
nature than 17th Century English society? If Hobbes says this, I hope he
supports it.
TRIP:
We know better now and the concept of
enlightement human nature must bend. People are not greedy
by nature. They are made greedy by culture, including most
importantly the mass media. People will always act stupid,
foolish, arrogant, selfish from time to time, bu they will
also be alturistic, compassionate, caring and loving. Which
one is our nature? There is no Human nature beyond the
innate desire to create culture, any culture that serves the
needs of the people.
ROG:
Again, you make bold statements ( which is commendable in a way). I have
read up on human nature and studies (and Hobbes wasn't the direct source),
and have not seen anyone even begin to prove that 'greed comes from culture'.
The best views of human nature that I have read come from James Wilson (The
Moral Sense). His conclusions, similar to your second-to-the-last sentence,
are that we are both selfish and altruistic, sympathetic and self-centered,
dutiful and free-spirited. Cultures influence, support or undermine these in
chaotic ways to create the variety of societies and people.
I agree with one sentence you write, and find the rest to be unsupported by
my experience (and by your argument). Again, I will keep an open mind, and
can easily be swayed!
TRIP:
Our commonly held beliefs are
fallacious and simply continue to justify the accumulation
of wealth by the few. They used to be called aristocrats,
now they are entrepreneurs, same wolf though.
ROG:
Owooooo! Ow Ow Ow Owooooo! (Wolf sounds GRRRR)
You need to make a better argument. You start with a combination of an ad
hominem and an incorrect rejection of Hobbes/Locke, and then go on to making
up statements on human nature and mass media with no attempt at supporting
them, and then back to the ad hominem attack combined with your unsupported
"wealth needs justifying" (hint-hint unless justified it is UNJUST!)
silliness.
Roger
Full-time Entrepeneur and part-time wolf
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