Hi Trip!
TRIP:
My name is Trip Powers and I am new to this list because I am going to use
ZAMM in my
philosophy class. I also teach economics so capitalism is often debated
within the
confines of my classroom.
ROG:
Welcome! My name is Roger and I have been a member for over 3 years. I too
teach and debate capitalism, though from a different perspective. (I am an
Executive at a Fortune 500 company.)
TRIP:
One of my friends said "I would like to see capitalism, totally unfettered,
work,
because it has never been truly tried." I found this comment interesting and
I always
keep it in mind when discussion flaws in the current system.
ROG:
I agree that unregulated capitalism would be an unmitigated disaster. If
there weren't rules against colluding and cheating and lying then at least
some would do it to exploit others, potentially crippling the overall system.
TRIP:
.....However, I do believe that world population, resourse use and abuse,
and environmental problems will occur faster than the market will allow.
What appears
to me to be the greatest problem isn't the functioning of the marketplace,
but the
measurements we use to define the health of our economy. The GNP is a lousy
measeurment.
ROG:
OK, I agree that it is an INCOMPLETE measure. It (using GNP as a measure)
doesn't necessarily lead to any of these, but it won't lead you away from
them either. (Interesting correlations exist between where capitalism runs
amok and where evolution runs amok. But I am getting off topic) I guess what
I am getting at is that it seems you are suggesting the GNP is some type of
feedback mechanism that controls the economy. I see it more as a mismeasure.
Big, REALLY BIG, difference. (I am frequently wrong though, as anyone on
this forum will attest.)
TRIP:
Capitalism, which has given use incredible technological
breakthoughs, is tied to this arcane system of measurement that IMO, holds it
back.
This measurement was created to help grow the economy back in the 50's during
the Cold
War to ensure we could continue to spend money on the arms race.
ROG:
Could you please list your reference for this last fact? Is it indeed a
fact, or are you just saying that for effect? (I'm really asking, not arguing)
TRIP:
The major industries(Air, car, now utilities and etc.) are controlled by a
very
few interests becasue they function best with some sort of controlled
planning.
It is very easy for these interests to collude and evade anti-trust laws.
Some
things, like public transit, are best left to government control.
ROG:
Again as in evolution, cooperation and competition must balance each other
out. Excessive 'interests' leads to inefficiency, too few to centralized
bloat and monopolistic exploitation. Some things are left best to government
control or influence, though which is best is better left to argumentation
and experiment. A proper role of government and competing interests is to
ensure collusion doesn't occur.
TRIP:
Our giant corporate interests OWN their own news divisions.
ROG:
Good thing then that all corporations aren't in collusion. As you know
though, they can have competing interests, and one can play the role of
watchdog protecting against others. (btw, who are you suggesting own them, if
not private stockholders? And for that matter, do you think 'corporate
interests' are different from those that own them?)
TRIP:
Our gap between rich and poor is dramatically more than any other
industrialized
nation
ROG:
Do you think this is one of our exportable success factors? I am asking
facetiously, but I wonder if it isn't a big part of our incredible,
unprecedented cultural success. Our freedom allows massive wealth production
and allows us to easily support the less successful. Remember that there are
two definitions for Equality. The first is that of children...equality of
outcome. The other is that of adults, equality of opportunity. Of course
both are relevant, and of course imbalance creates opportunity of
exploitation, but I am just pointing out that the gap isn't necessarily all
bad.
TRIP:
We, due to the pressure to grow our economy, commit horrendous human rights
abuses
worldwide, not to mention the destabilizing effect our CIA has had on thrid
world
development.
ROG:
You need to support this argument. I don't buy it, but will keep an open
mind if you can prove abuses and destabilization are caused by "pressure to
grow our economy".
TRIP:
The effect of big money from labor and corporations is to weaken democracy at
the
expense of capitalism. The power over our lives is decreasing except for
artificial things like appearance. What real choices do we have. We either
join
their system or get hounded by the police or other government agencies.
ROG:
Huh? What choices would you have otherwise? Picking berries? Hell, don't
join the system, go start your own. This point really makes no sense. What
system (ie social system) do you want instead? This sounds like something
cynical college kids say when they want to whine about everything and offer
nothing in return. Sorry, maybe I just misunderstand you.
As for weakening "democracy," I take it as a teacher that you have read the
Federalist Papers? I think the system of checks and balances and competing
interests is quite similar to that espoused by Madison (James, not Dolly),
one of the premier creators of our Constitution (the longest in existence, as
you know, most of the rest of the world wrote theirs post WWII)
TRIP:
Capitalism is a very inefficient method for many things: including
child+elderly
care;
ROG:
Trade-offs and inefficiencies definitely exist in free enterprise systems.
Btw, what are you suggesting, if anything, instead? Can I find it in the web
site you mentioned?
TRIP:
Rob, I appreciated the cogency of you thoughts about how this relates to
quality. The
true test of a government and an economic system is the quality of life of
its citizens
and we have replaced that with economic growth.
ROG:
Again, I agree with how you start, but then you seem to go off with an
unsupported statement that is compared to nothing. You are right that a free
economy doesn't necessarily lead to maximum quality of life. Some of your
examples were true as well. However, to properly criticize capitalism
(especially in light of Rob's Churchill quote) you have to offer up a better
alternative. Now you and I (and Churchill) agree that unfettered free
enterprise is suboptimal. Is that your point? If so I agree. If not,
please share....
Roger Parker
Teacher (of a sort)
As Churchill said, "It may not be perfect,
but it's the best thing we know". (Rob)
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