Trip,
Forgive my style, but I want to dig into some of your assumptions and the
conventional wisdom behind them. In general, I agree with much of your
vision, but not necessarily your current take on the current state of social
quality. (As a side note, to all members of the forum, I find that
discussions such as this where we apply the MOQ are so much more value than
just talking about what Pirsig said on page 237.)
TRIP:
After I sent the post, I realized that I didn't address fully, or even hardly
at
all, an alternative vision. As I condemned the usual alternative (i.e.
socialism/communism) where do we go? You probable aren't going to like the
generality but here goes:
ROG:
Oh but I do! I just ask that we do it with .... care.
TRIP:
Just as capitalism became the logical outgrowth of mercantilism, which was the
logical outgrowth of the commercial revolution, and etc., I think there is a
beyond capitalism that takes into account more fully human Quality of life, as
defined by our abilities to choose completely their life work(and change if
need
be) and that also increases our ability to spend time with friends and
community. What we have now actually discourages these activities. Indeed, a
recent documentary on PBS, cited research that we spend on average 40 minutes
playing with children and 4 hours shopping a week, even more working overtime.
ROG:
I certainly won't argue against freedom, but I do need to challenge some of
(my inferences of) your unstated assumptions. First, you seem to imply that
capitalism leads to less freedom to choose than desired. I can't argue, but
I will clarify that studies of most countries shows that the average hours
per year spent working is half of what it was in the 19th century, and it has
been generally dropping in every country including non-capitalist ones)
except Korea. Since 1965, "free time" has increased dramatically in the US
(despite small increase in work/commute hours), but it has been devoted
primarily to extra recreation and TV. I guess my point is that it may not be
capitalism to blame as much as values. (and this is assuming playing with
kids and friends is of higher value than watching TV)
My second issue is that we need to be very careful of solving a complex issue
on one dimension. Assuming we all agree that freedom to play with kids and
socialize is of exceptional value, we need to agree that before we have a
superior social system that we also need to evaluate the new "solution's"
impact upon such qualities of life as safety, comfort, ability to travel,
health, life expectancy, freedom to love and reproduce, artistic quality,
wealth, consciousness, freedom from pollution, preservation of environment,
ability to educate, equality of opportunity and outcome, ability to support 6
billion people, etc. I offer that the best choice so far is free
enterprise/democracy/western science. Any new emergent model will need to
surpass the total package. (and I believe it can and probably will be
surpassed -- to a great extent due to visionaries such as we find in this
forum.)
My third and final challenge is with how you seem to imply that time spent
working or shopping is less rewarding than time spent with kids or friends.
I'm not a big fan of shopping, but I know some people find it very rewarding
-- go figure?? As for work, clinical studies of satisfaction and happiness
by M. Csikszentmihalyi in his book Flow actually revealed that most people
enjoy their greatest satisfaction at work (and their least while watching
TV). Certainly I would argue that work can and should be creative,
productive, enabling, educational, enjoyable, challenging, and a great
conduit to establishing friendship and departing knowledge to others. In
fact, this is one message I got out of Zen and the Art of MM. The real
solution isn't in a new economic system, it is within oneself. Let's agree
that the most important motorcycle is ourselves, and that we can ALSO begin
the path to a better society.
In summary, it is a lot easier to point out problems than it is to create
holistic multi-dimensional solutions. Marxism is a great case in point. I
agree with your quest, but ask that we do it with empirical care. Let's make
sure we have really understood the strengths and weaknesses of what we have
so we can then evaluate if we are making progress as opposed to digress
toward our goals. You really were making the identical point on GNP.
TRIP:
There is not the time and space, and I am not trained enough in economics to
even
try to label my ideas, but I belive in the amzing creative potential in the
human
being. If we want to provide a stable environment for all humans, so they can
enjoy the kind of quality of life we enjoy in the west, we can. We are just
not
trying to do that exactly. We hope it will be a by product of the market.
That
isn't good enough for me. I want to state the goal in humanitarian terms and
begin trying to achieve it.
ROG:
Yes! This forum is about understanding biological, social and intellectual
quality, and in making dynamic progress toward more quality. This is just
the forum for us to build your/our vision.
Enough said for now. I will address your other points shortly. Thank you
for the rewarding exchange and opportunity to grow and learn.
Rog
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:01:38 BST