Hey gang,
Just tryin' to keep the discussion going....
DARRYL:
Israel a liberal democracy? Supporting
freedom? With all due respect, sir, I wonder what color the sky is in your
world. I don't know if you're aware of it, but Israel is a functional
theocracy and the only ones who get to participate fully are the Jews.
ROG:
I think Jonathan already clarified the "color of sky."
D:
And
the idea of a Palestinian state under the conditions stated is ludicrous at
best and an insult in any case. The Israeli army strikes at the
infrastructure of the Palestinians every time it attacks. This is not any
way to liberally (the word carries a connotation of generosity, openly, and
broadmindedly) treat anyone.
R:
I was using the word in the political sense, as opposed to that offerred by
the true theocratic dictators in the neighborhood. And for the record, I
never offerred a view on the state of the Palestinians. Jonathan also
clarified that the Israelies are capable of genocide. The point is that they
aren't interested in doing so.
D:
That Palestinians see the whole of the oppressive
Israeli state, including its civilians as the enemy is clear from the news
reports and interviews. That their actions are, ultimately, wrong is not
enough.
R:
I think the Palestinian terrorists and Israeli casualties are both pawns in
this game.
D:
There are no white hats. Israel is a bloody and brutal
oppressor and the Palestinians have few ways to strike back except through
terror -- and it is their shame that they do strike back that way.
R:
They could have accepted any of the offers for land or made some new offers
of their own. The problem is that we aren't dealing with two groups that
want to divie up the landscape, we are dealing with one that gobbled up too
much landscape (for various reasons) but that wants to try to redivide and
one that wants to annihilate the other. As long as their goal is
exterminating Jews, then the Palestinians won't make progress and shouldn't
have any moral support for their disfunctionality.
D:
Certainly there is anti-Semitism raising its head again, and there is no
excuse for that either, but do not assign that anyone questioning the
Israeli attacks.
R:
I in absolutely no way said that anyone questioning the attacks was
antisemitic. I said antisemitism was rising up again in Europe and the world
(and this site -- as shown in those despicable anticircumscism posts). You
basically agree. I also agree with Marco that the main culprit in Europe is
the intellectual/leftists.
Below is an article from the Wall Street Journal that addresses the issue in
a way that made me chuckle:
"Today, in much of the world's eyes, two peoples--the Americans and
the Jews--have emerged as the great exemplars of undeserved success.
Americans and Israelis, in this view, are the money-mad molochs of the
earth, the vulgarizers of morals, corrupters of culture, and proselytizers
of idolatrous values. These two nations, it is said, practice conquest
capitalism, overrunning poorer nations and exploiting weaker neighbors in
their endless desire for more and more. These two peoples, the Americans and
the Jews, in the view of the bourgeoisophobes, thrive precisely because they
are spiritually stunted. It is their obliviousness to the holy things in
life, their feverish energy, their injustice, their shallow pursuit of power
and gain, that allow them to build fortunes, construct weapons, and play the
role of hyperpower."
"And so just as the French intellectuals of the 1830s rose up to
despise the traders and bankers, certain people today rise up to shock,
humiliate, and dream of destroying America and Israel. Today's
bourgeoisophobes burn with the same sense of unjust inferiority. They
experience the same humiliation because there is nothing they can do to
thwart the growing might of their enemies. They rage and rage. Only today's
bourgeoisophobes are not just artists and intellectuals. They are as likely
to be terrorists and suicide bombers. They teach in madrassas, where they
are careful not to instruct their students in the sort of practical
knowledge that dominates bourgeois schools. They are Muslim clerics who
incite hatred and violence. They are erudite Europeans who burn with
humiliation because they know, deep down, that both America and Israel
possess a vitality and heroism that their nations once had but no longer do."
(for the record, I just included this because it seemed as (ir)relevant as
those equally dopey Chomsky quotes.)
D:
As an exercise in determining how balanced things are, let's supply the
Palestinians with the same American weapons, financial support, and
infrastructure that Israel enjoys and see if they still find the need to use
suicide bombers.
R:
No need. I think we both agree that their would be no Jews left. Thank God
that this particular disfunctional cycle of hate is incapable of the
technology of modern weapons. Intellectual power in the hands of
biological/primitive social cultures is a surefire recipe for death.
For the record, I think I agree with you that the Palestinians MUST BE GIVEN
THEIR OWN STATE. However, it must be on the condition of no further attacks
or terrorism. As long as they try to behave like primitive barbarians, they
must get NOTHING. If after they get their own state they continue to abuse
their neighbor, then I support the Israelies in doing anything in their power
to defend themselves. (And it is up to the Israelies to relocate their damn
settlers).
By the way, I also support the US not getting involved -- at least up to the
point of major catastrophe.
Easier said than done.
Rog
PS -- Gav is so cute in his praise. To paraphrase: "Oh don't be offended!
Israel isn't an evil state...it is just an evil puppet state."
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