Jonathan, you duck my point:
In this case, I do assert that I know quite a bit more than you about the
political history of Israel; I know this because your summary of its history
indicates that you have NOT looked at the documents I cited (or perhaps
don't remember them well). I listed the key documents for the period and
themes that you were trying to summarize, and again invite you to consult
them.
You may not like my saying this, but you can't just come on a list, make a
bunch of incorrect statements, and then be offended when you are offered
some help in getting a fuller and more accurate view of what happened. You
put the phrase "correct version" in quotes, as if there were no such thing.
But, indeed, there is a massive documentary history available, and if you
had studied it you would surely have at least a "more correct" version in
your mind than you do. Perhaps political science and legal history are not
your field" and you don't feel you should have to do this work -- fair
enough --, but if this is the case you will appreciate then the idea that
you ought to concede the point that some others are likely to know more
about it than you.
As I said, I felt that your summary was made in good faith (and is a LOT
better than most that are being recounted now by some pro-Israeli or
pro-Palestinian supporters): the thing that I hope you will do now is deepen
your knowledge and improve your narrative so that it jibes with the
documented facts.
Please DO let me have a list of the "several other" documents that I did not
cite that you think might increase my own level of understanding. I look
forward to hearing from you specifically on this. You are correct, there
are many more; I was trying to give you a brief list of the key ones and not
overwhelm you. Again, I can give you the primary citations if you need
them.
On another topic: I have thought in the last hours about this matter of
sympathy for individuals under fire, and disagreement with the political
assertions they make.
As I and others on this list have expressed to you personally over these
last months, we worry about you. You are a sympatico person, and I enjoy
your posts and learn from them (subject to the above comments, of course,
<smile> ). But this does not mean that I or anyone else disagreeing with
the current activities of the Israeli government should not express our
opinions and recommendations.
Platt and a couple of others expressed their support for the policies of the
Israeli government, and you reacted with gratitude. But the expression of
political support is no more, no less meaningful than criticism, when it
comes to "cost-free moralism". Platt's offering is just as 'cost-free' as
those who criticize. Reacting more positively to one than the other simply
means that you (like us all) only want to hear things that are comforting to
you. The problem with this, of course, is that if you have lost your
bearings on the Israeli-Palestine conflict, it will be all the harder for
you to 'hear' suggestions that might actually help you and your government
get out of the practical and moral morass that it finds itself in. I am
personally glad that you are safe, I sympathize witht he horrot you are
enduring, AND I wish that your government could shed the self-deluding and
self-misleading myths that now keep it on its destructive path.
And I would say the same thing to any Palestinian, particularly if a
sympatico one were here on this list.
Lawry
> Finally I come to LAWRENCE
> >Jonathan, I believe you are sincere in your efforts to look at
> the history
> >of the conflict and its meaning. But your account is quite badly
> distorted
>
> Lawrence, are you claiming that you know the "correct version"? How very
> unPirsigian of you!
> I know the contents of some of the documents you quote, but not
> all. I know
> also of several others.
> Many of them (even from the same government) were mutually contradictory.
> For obvious reasons, the Zionist movement endorsed the documents
> that suited
> its purposes and opposed the rest. This is hardly relevant any
> more. History
> (what actually happens) is almost impossible to undo. I KNOW that hundreds
> of thousands of Arabs were displaced in 1948 - a low quality occurrence,
> especially for them. By now, it is as hard to reverse this as it is to
> reverse the displacement of Native Americans from their ancestral
> homelands.
>
> I also think that Israeli settlement in occupied territories is a big
> problem, but also not completely reversible.
> Any progress on resolving the conflict should be based on giving as many
> people as possible a decent, DIGNIFIED life without displacing them from
> their homes. IMO, Barak made a big mistake by going for a
> comprehensive "end
> of conflict" solution, - a STATIC pattern of fixed borders and rights.
> Instead, we should have pursued a DYNAMIC open-ended approach via
> string of
> minor pragmatic agreements on living arrangements. I believe that
> the effect
> would be to gradually dissolve the antagonism. My dream is that one day,
> Arabs and Jews will "hate" each other the same way as the English and the
> French.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
> Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
> MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
>
> To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
> http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:10 BST