Hi Lawrence, Roger, (Sam),
>I have seen the kinds of assertions that you repeat here, and have seen
no
>evidence to support them, and quite a bit to suggest they are
erroneous.
That's what Lawrence wrote to Roger, but I now level the same accusation
at him!!!
Sam, before you start on Lawrence's reading list, I suggest that you
read the following.
Methinks that someone is either deliberately twisting the facts or needs
to be given a new reading list.
ROG
1. Which people cheered on the streets on 9/11?
a) Israelies
b) *Palestinians*
LAWRENCE
>Actually, it turned out that this was footage of anotehr event, on
file,
>and that it started being shown in conjunction with 9/11. But I was
taken in
>at the time, too.
Palestinian celebrations on 11th Sept 2001 were reported in several
locations (enough so that you were "taken in"). Please document your
claim that all the reports and video footage were false.
ROG
2. Who, in 2000, refused an offer to give the Palestinians 97% of
the
west
bank -- in a contiguous area -- shared control of Jerusalem, a
capitol
in
Jerusalem, and the right for Palestinians refugees everywhere to
return
to
the new homeland?
a) *Arafat*
b) Barak
LAWRENCE
<<< This was actually in 2001. This was a niggardly 'offer,' though,
yes, it
was the most 'generous' one yet offered by Israel. It does not provide
for
the creation of a viable Palestine, and failed to honor several past
agreements in principle, e.g. the Oslo Accords. Many other key issues
were
not resolved during those negotiations, and the talks broke down over
several issues, not just the one you cite.
The situation is not one in which the Israelis can simply make
offers
and the Palestinians are obligated to accept them. The two are at war,
and
only cooperative negotiations can end it. Both sides will have to
compromise
significantly if these negotiations are to be successful. Neither can
impose
a solution on the other.>>>
According to unconfirmed media reports, Barak did offer something along
the lines that Roger suggests, and it WAS in 2000 (Camp David). Barak
never confirmed it. I agree that the Palestinians have no obligation to
accept Israel's offers, but it is completely wrong to claim that "the
two were at war" back in 2000. The problem is NOT just that the
Palestinians rejected the offers. The problem is that they rejected
continued negotiations in favour of embarking on a campaign of violence.
ROG
5. Prior to Israeli occupation, the West Bank and Gaza Strip were
controlled
by..
a) The free state of Palestine
b) *Jordan and Egypt*
LAWRENCE
<< Yes, after the israei seizure of much of Palestine, Egypt took over
the
administration of the Gaza Strip, and Jordan the West Bank. They both
did so
with explicit agreement of the Palestinians and explicit statements that
they were NOT asserting sovereignty over those two areas. Indeed, both
governments have periodically reasserted this, and their national maps
did
not show those areas as a part of their sovereign lands. No
mistreatment,
and no complaints by the Palestinians that Egypt and Jordan did anything
improper.>>>
I'd like to see your "explicit statements", to verify that they were
made by recognised Palestinian leaders. While Egypt never asserted
sovereignty, Jordan DID in fact annex the West Bank, though the
annexation was recognised only by Pakistan and the United Kingdom.
During this idyllic period, King Hussein survived several assassination
attempts. King Hussein felt so threatened by the PLO (with good cause)
that he forcibly evicted the organization in 1970. Jordan only
recognized the Palestinian claim to sovereignty in the West Bank much
later, and long after it had lost control of the area to Israel.
ROG
6. Israel occupied these two areas because...
a) They attacked peaceful arab neighbors in a land gr! ab
b) *They captured it in a battle while defending themse! lves from
attempted
arab annihilation*
LAWRENCE
<<< The Gaza Strip and West Bank were seized by Israel in 1967 in a war
that
Israel initiated, not the Arab countries. In 1973, Egypt did attack
Israel,
but in the end this did not affect the West Bank or Gaza
demarcations.>>>
Questions: 1) Which country ordered the United Nations peacekeeping
force to leave the demilitarized area between Israel and Egypt and then
moved in its troops in violation of previous agreements? 2) Which
country co-ordinated its mobilization with Syrian and Iraqi forces? 3)
Which country was given command of the Jordanian army and used them to
launch an attack on West Jerusalem? 4) Please define "initiate".
ROG
9. Which side of the struggle pays $25 to $50K to the families of
suicide
bombers that kill mothers and children?
a) Jews
b) *Arabs*
LAWRENCE
<<<I believe this is correct, but don't have primary source knowledge.
It
is fo course, contentious to specify that 'mothers and children' are the
victims, when men are as well. or is a man's life not worth as much as
a
woman's, in your view?>>>
Actually, there has been at least one case of Israel paying benefits to
the family of suicide bomber. They were entitled to this by virtue of
the fact that the bomber was an Israeli citizen covered by National
Insurance
ROG 11. Whose covenants of 1968 specifically state that "the
establishment
of
Israel is fundamentally null and void" and that it "is a national
duty....to
purge the Zionist presence."?
a) *Palestine's*
b) France's
LAWRENCE
<<< Correct. You do not note that this part of the Palestinian
National
Covenant has been eliminated.>>>
They were supposed to do this immediately after Oslo was signed. Their
failure to do so was a source of friction for some years.
ROGER
12. Whose geography maps in school don't show Israel?
a) *Pal! estinians'*
b) Turkey's
LAWRENCE
<<< Please note that the website you referred me to, also indicates
that
Jewish fundamentalist textbooks fail to show Palestine on their maps,
and
show Israel all the way to the Jordan river.>>>
Lawrence, how do you justify comparing textbooks released officially by
the Palestinian education authorities maps published by some fringe
Jewish groups? (I note, that yet again, you provide to cite your
source).
So far Lawrence, I am not impressed by your "superior" knowledge of
history.
Jonathan
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