Hi Platt and all MOQers:
Platt wrote...
It would also be wrong to claim that either of them is making a case for
liberalism as defined by the current democratic party. In fact, they are
both very harsh on Marxists, statists and collectivists of all stripes.
DMB...
Really? I don't recall seeing the words "Marxists, statists or
collectivists" anywhere in Lila. Maybe you'd show us some quotes? As I
understand it, both Pirsig and Wilber put conservatism at a lower level than
the progressive ideologies, and in that respect they certainly do make a
case for liberalism. Allow me to re-post the most relevant part of the
Wilber quote. He doesn't use Pirsig's terms, but I think it easy to see that
what Wilber calls "premodern world views" is what Pirsig would call the
social level and likewise Wilber's "rational differentiations of modernity"
refers to what Pirsig call the intellectual level. One can only conclude
that in a contest between conservatism and liberalism ther is no contest.
They don't even play in the same league. They're at different levels. Here's
Kenny boy....
"(Traditional conservatism is in
many important ways anchored in premodern world views - from mythic religion
to civic humanism - whereas liberalism is largely anchored in the rational
differentiations of modernity. Thus the integration of premodern religion
with the differentiationss of modernity would open up the possiblity of a
significant reconsiliation of conservative and liberal views. See THE EYE OF
SPIRIT for further discussion of this theme.)"
Platt wrote...
Of course, you have no political prejudices and are able to look at all
philosophical positions with complete, unaldulterated objectivity.
DMB...
Clearly, you're being sarcastic. That's OK. I'll give an answer anyway. The
most educated and experienced political philosopher in the world still has
lots to learn. And so do I. We all do. BUT, I have worked hard for twenty
years to understand these things. As a child, I was a fundamentalist and a
conservative, but then grew a brain, earned a degree in intellectual
history, worked as a magazine writer and a radio talk show host. I don't
claim any special objectivity, but most folks just don't give politics that
much attention. Most people don't think about it for a living. Although it
sure seems like Lawry is a professional. Impressive. (Wonder where you get
your news and views?)
Platt wrote and quoted...
To put Wilber's views on liberalism in perspective, you may want to
consider the following from his book, "A Theory of Everything."
"And liberalism, arising directly in the midst of this scientific
materialism, swallowed its worldview hook, line and sinker. In other
words, LIBERALISM BECAME THE POLITICAL CHAMPION OF
FLATLAND . . . Thus, liberal political theory was coming from a higher
level of development, but a development that was caught in
pathological flatland. Put bluntly, liberalism was a sick version of a
higher level." pp. 86, 87 (emphasis the author's)
Pirsig makes a similar point from another viewpoint about socialism--
intellectually at a higher level than society but "sick" due to it's
adherence to a subject-object metaphysics that rejects any moral
realities.
DMB...
(standing ovation.) Here we are in agreement. This causes shock, confusion
and disorientation. Just kidding. Pirsig's complaint about SOM's amoral
scientific objectivity is essentially identical to Wilber's Flatland. And by
any other name it would still smell the same. They are both interested
solving the problem. That's what makes them so attractive, no? But if I tell
you that my car is not working properly, would you tell me to get it fixed
or would you tell me to buy a horse? Compalining about my broken auto is not
a rejection of motor vehicles, nor is it an endorsement of returning to the
days of carriages and buggies, is it? See what I mean? Their complaints
about SOM/Flatland is not a rejection of science, intellectual values or of
liberalism. They want to fix these things.
Platt wrote...
If we both stick to protection and expansion of individual freedom as
the proper role and aim of government, we have no quarrel. Despite
your attempts to demonize conservatives, individual freedom is at the
heart of our political belief. To lift government from the backs of the
productive members of society by reducing taxes would indeed by a
progressive movement, as JFK recognized.
DMB...
I know. That's what makes it so frustrating. Freedom is the destination we
both desire. Taxes. Let me say a few words about taxes. There is a long-held
and often repeated conservative view of taxes as a kind of tyranny. But the
fact is it takes money to run a government, the purpose of which is supposed
to be to secure the rights of every citizen. Gotta pay the bills. Freedom
ain't free. The idea that taxes constitute an unjust confiscation is
betrayed by the fact that our representatives write the tax laws. And the
consequences of the conservative view have been disasterous. In 1954, for
example, a US Senator, who also happened to be on the board of directors at
the United Fruit Company, learned that the President of Guatamala had
imposed a small tax on that company's operations in his country. (The
government had no revenues at all.) The Senator went on the floor on the
Senate chambers and told his collegues that Guatamalan President was a
Communist and had seized UFC property. At his urging the CIA engineered a
coup, ousted the democratically elected leader and that nation has been a
bloody, deadly mess ever since, run by one US sponsored thug after another.
Death and taxes. This is the result of the view that taxes are tyrannical
and/or communistic. It is a notion for which some are willing to spill blood
and ruins democracies. This is outrageously immoral. (My problem with taxes
is that the middle class is taxed to support individuals and corporatons
that are richer than some nations. That's wacked. The original income tax
legislation applied only to the top 1% of earners. Wouldn't that be nice?)
In short, this anti-government, anti-tax brand of conservatism is
essentially anti-democratic and unAmerican.
Thanks for your time,
DMB
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