Hi all this is Gary;
>Peter Register starts with: Hi all,
>
> On 31 May 2002 at 21:40, elliot hallmark wrote:
>
>
> > >(bo)Intellectual value won't have anything to do with "mysticism".
> >
> > Elliot:
> > Then where does mysticism fit in? With the MoQ's focus on mysticism,
where
> > does the MoQ fit in? Mysticism is clearly not social because it is
very,
> > very personal and notions of society disolve in mystical experience.
thus
> > as intel beings, whatever we do is nessicarily intel (or social or
> > biological, but mysticism is neither of these).
>
> Mysticism would be pure dynamic quality, no? In so far as it is an
experience beyond
> society or intellect, it is dynamic quality. If that experience leads one
to have a
> reformation of ideas then we interpret the experience as intellect, but it
is not
> intellect. If that experience leads one to modify or ignore social
patterns then we
> interpret that experience as social, but it is not social.
>
> > Also, mysticism is
> > concerned primarily with symbols and our understanding of the world as
> > symbolic, as "only a description".
>
> Isn't this exactly what mysticism is attempting to avoid? An experience
that is difficult
> to explain because the symbols we have can't capture the experience. The
map isn't
> the terrain. Mysticism (quality?) is that which is before intellect or
society...it is what
> shapes intellect or society after we attempt to understand it. I think.
Maybe. ;)
>
>
> -peter
Gary's response: Bo you got it all wrong: you said: (bo)Intellectual value
won't have anything to do with "mysticism".
Your error is mixing up the word as usually defined 'intellectual' with
Pirsig's 'intellectual value' level. I quote Pirsig to make my point: This
is from Lila's Child footnote 24: "In Lila I never defined the intellectual
level of the MOQ, since everyone who is up to reading Lila already knows
what "intellectual" means. For purposes of MOQ precision let's say that the
intellectual level is the same as mind. It is the collection and
manipulation of symbols, created in the brain, that stand for patterns of
experience."
Therefore for simplicity we have INTELECTUAL VALUE LEVEL = MIND. [For a
further understanding of the Intellectual Value Level/ Mind, read my essay!]
Here is how mysticism works [In my very un-humble opinion]: mysticism
takes 'place' at the Intellectual Stable Pattern Level. It is the process
of an individual to find and connect to pure Quality. That experience is a
mystical event within/at the Intellectual Value Level. Once the event is
being understood it is done so still at the same level but with words and
symbols which are the mythos of the persons societal values [here we have on
the Intellectual Value Level a person using the tools of the Societal Value
Level.]
You Bo have gotten lost in A logic. You have taken the word 'intellectual
and treated it as if was the same as the word used in MOQ Intellectual
Pattern of Value as Pirsig defines it. You are correct in say that Mystical
experience is not 'intellectual if you mean 'not scientific' , 'not
rational' , etc. But as Pirsig defines it, all events occurring within an
individual mind is occurring on what Pirsig defines as the Intellectual
Value Level of MOQ.
I hope that killed/corrected your platypus Bo.
Gary Jaron, "People shape, and are shaped by, ideas.'
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:18 BST