Hi all,
Just butting in with my un-wanted two cents.
I do not think you will find a time in historical evolution where social
jumps into intellect. The reason being is that they evolved simultaneously!
One can not exist without the other. [Also recall that Q-Intellectual is
actually equal to the "mind" according to Pirsig!] Once they do exist the
process of socialization, the passing on of history, mythos, symbols, etc
[all q-Social stuff] is done 'first' to the next generation before that
child has a chance to think on its own and hence to use its Q-intellect to
make new Q-intellect stuff to possibly change the existing Q-social.
The nexus between Q-Social and Q-Intellect is not the simple divide that
Pirsig gives in Lila. You will spin out forever without resolution if you
keep trying to find out how and when the one "evolved" into the other.
Pirsig was right in the sense of the process of socialization: Social gives
birth to Intellectual, Pirsig was wrong in the sense of actual historical
events.
bye!
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: 3dwavedave <dlt44@ipa.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: MD Definition of Q-intellect
> Wim
>
> > 1 don't think we're here to create consensus.
>
> Then we're succeeding famously.
>
> > I meant rather that the start of oral language TRADITIONS marked the
jump
> > from social to intellect.
> > Do you still agree?
>
> Nope. I think oral language traditions emerged and evolved sometime
> during the evolution of the social level and the jump to the
> intellectual was based on language already being stable in some
> rudimentary form. But I don't think we'll ever know with certainty just
> when in history this jump occured, nor do I think it that "when" is that
> important. What is important is what type of events signify this jump.
>
> I mentioned "intelligence" and "intellect" in my last post and after
> returning to a dictionary I think the definitions maybe useful in trying
> to discriminate between social and intellectual events.
>
> intellegence- 1. a) the ability to learn or understand from experience;
> ability to acquire and retain knowledge....
>
> intellect- 1 a) the ability to reason or understand or perceive
> relationships, differences, etc....
>
> If we then strike "to understand" from both definitions I think they are
> sufficiently different to say that "intellegence" is more a social
> quality and "intellect" well an intellectual quality.
>
> So let me describe an event that I think illustrates the difference
> between the two; intellegence/intellect or social/intellectual. Image a
> group of hunter gathers, their intellegence allows them to remember what
> type of berries are good to eat, when they will ripen and where the are
> located, all intellegence/social events in fact some would argue
> biological.(But just to make it clear one gather turn to the other and
> says, "Joe the berries should be ripe today let's go check) But at some
> point in time probably through happenstance or accident somebody figured
> out "how" these berries came to be. Conditions and circumstances were
> just right and some discarded ripe berries they picked sprouted and grew
> while Joe observed it. He made the connection, reasoned, that these
> sprouts would at some time in the future produce more berries. And
> either then, or much latter, further reasoned, that if these berries
> were scattered around closer to the cave everyone would have lots to eat
> and a much shorter distance to walk. This type of event signifies to me
> the jump from social to intellectual.
>
> 3WD
>
>
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