From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sat Oct 05 2002 - 23:38:34 BST
Hey movie lovers:
DMB had said:
"I don't have a page number or
anything, but I'm sure that Pirsig allows for exceptions, like documentaries
and stuff. Further, I'd bet Pirsig would make even more exceptions if he saw
what independent film makers have been doing in recent years."
Sam responds with the quote"
But it was precisely because Pirsig doesn't leave a get out clause that I
sent out my original post. He writes:
"Films are social media; his book was largely intellectual. That was the
center of the problem....Sure, it's possible to use film for primarily
intellectual purposes, to make a documentary, but Redford wasn't here to
make a documentary, or anything close to it... Pictures aren't intellectual
media. Pictures are pictures... what he saw at this point was a social
pattern of values, a film, devouring an intelletual pattern of values, his
book. It would be a lower form of life feeding upon a higher form of life.
As such it would be immoral."
DMB says:
Well, there it is. You don't need the page number. "Sure, its possible to
use film for primarily intellectual purposes, to make a documentary.." If
that's not a get-out clause, I don't know what is. And I've heard this same
complaint from more than a few people in the biz and in books about the biz.
The heartbreak of Hollywood is famous. Scripts are re-written without mercy.
Writers have been driven to madness and suicide. We'll do lunch.
Sam continues:
"Films are social media... pictures aren't intellectual media... a social
pattern of values, a film". He allows documentaries to be an exception, but
that's not my point - my point is that, to refer to something I read
somewhere, film can 'change the way you think and feel about your life'.
DMB says:
Oh, please. Where'd you read that? Sounds like a corny advertisement.
Sam continues:
Which to my mind is not a social level function. Pirsig seems pretty
unambiguous to me - unambiguous and wrong. (Which isn't to say that I think
all film is intellectual - it clearly isn't, but what I'm objecting to is
Pirsig's assumption that film is *incapable* of being an intellectual
medium. That just seems ignorant, although it is consistent with a number of
other attitudes that Pirsig holds.
DMB says:
Why can't a life be changed on the social level? Myths and stories have
shaped human lives and culture for thousands of years. Not only is this a
social level function, its a vital and necessary social function. I'd add to
the point Erin made about context, but in an even broader sense. In the
surrounding paragraphs and chapters, Pirsig is discusssing New York cit as a
social level Giant, about the central role of Celebrity in the social level,
and about Victorian values, as they were among the last to put social values
over intellectual values. (Those since are considered reactionary.) Pirsig's
comments about film as a social medium make good sense in that context. If
Hollywood isn't about fame and fortune, which are social level values, then
nothing is.
Sam said:
BTW I agree with you about the Matrix, that you need to be educated to get
an intellectual 'fix' from watching it, I just didn't want to dive straight
in with pretentious waffling about Tarkovsky ;-) I haven't seen Henry Fool,
I'll try and get hold of a copy. But I think the Coen brothers are
marvellous too. Recent 'Hollywood/popular' films that have intellectual
content: Magnolia (primus inter pares), American Beauty, Eyes Wide Shut,
Fight Club and, yes, the Matrix. BEND THE SPOON!
DMB says:
Oh, don't get me started. I'll write all day. Let me just say that I thought
FIGHT CLUB wasn't just smart, it was psychologically profound. But so are
lots of myths. I'm not so sure that makes them intellectual. Intellectuals
can get a "fix" from it, but the viewer has to bring it with them. Stories
don't explain ideas, they can only portray them, show them, play them out.
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