From: Elizaphanian (Elizaphanian@members.v21.co.uk)
Date: Fri Oct 25 2002 - 13:05:34 BST
Hi Peter,
> I feel the vehicle you search for is a mirage - it is a
> static representation of a living narrative. I'm not making much sense am
i?
>
On the contrary, I think a full understanding of this is absolutely central.
Individuality, in the sense that I am groping towards, is precisely a
'living narrative' - it is not a fixed and stable entity (in the same way
that a society is an ongoing - living - construction, not wholly static.) As
soon as something becomes wholly static it is blind to DQ and therefore
dead. My point is that the individual - as a living narrative - is open to
DQ in a way that intellect is not, because the narrative that explicates our
identity is not a purely intellectual narrative. (To describe who I am,
talking about my education would be helpful but it would not be sufficient
on its own) I consider intellect (in the Western sense) to be something of
an anti-DQ death-force, precisely because it seeks a 'closed' and formal
understanding. Perhaps that's another thread.
> Peter: Gladly, as far as i am able! There is a differentiation in the
values
> particular Humans may have due to the level of dominance manoeuvring the
> bundle of patterns you wish to describe as an individual. The notion of
> 'rights' is an intellectually motivated level playing field negating the
> obvious differentiation's between people. Democracy behaves in a similar
way.
> So, the excellent philanthropist dictator cannot gain power? The self
serving
> egocentric is similarly blocked. Both the philanthropist and the nasty
seen
> as social entities are here being influenced by an idea. This idea serves
to
> protect intellectually friendly social institutions such as the church of
> reason. Before the church of reason really got a grip, the church nurtured
> those patterns that were eventually to turn and bite their backside?
>
You say that the philanthropist and nasty are influenced by an idea - I
would say that they are repressed by a social pattern (which pattern itself
was established by fourth level domination of the social level). You're
right about the church.
>
> Peter: For border read category? You are a philosopher i believe? Your
> language indicates to me that you have formal training in the art of
> philosophy. You are inviting me to argue and i tend to talk in terms of
value
> as fundamentally given grounstuff of experience. Maybe that is why we
appear
> to talk past eachother? For me, the MoQ is a poem waiting to be sung and
not
> an argument. Working this out will be interesting...
>
I do have formal training in philosophy, it's true... (see my biog on the
moq.org website). The thing is, my perspective is wishing to say that
articulating the MoQ as a poem, or indeed as a novel, is something which can
be understood and encompassed as valuable if you see the fourth level as
about individuals, whereas it can't be if the fourth level is seen as about
intellect. So in this regard I think we are actually in agreement (although
clearly I'm using intellectual means to put my point across, not poetic or
dramatic. That's who I am....)
>
> Peter: I cannot read Ancient Greek and our modern texts are riddled with
> notions of individuality. Please tell me more?
>
I'm not proficient in Ancient Greek, although I did have to learn it to read
the New Testament (which is a dialect, not the Attic Greek of Plato). This
is something that I am digging into myself, so I wouldn't wish to
pontificate. (Not yet anyway ;-) ) Much of my understanding, in this and
in other fields, stems from my agreement with Alasdair MacIntyre. I think
what he has to say is compatible with Pirsig - have a look at After Virtue,
which has now attained the status of a modern classic in philosophy.
Sam
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