hi, richard:
you are right in that koans shouldn't be analyzed but i was trying to prove
a point about zen connecting to spirit not emptiness.
accordingly, the koan should elicit feeling that one would then follow to
its spiritual root thus connecting oneself with the spiritus mundi from
which we all arose and are still part of. by mentally analyzing its
ramifications we defeats its intent and purpose.
the koan you gave as an example is one which is very difficult to make sense
of...as are all koans. but, if we allow the images to arouse feelings and
then follow them theoritically we will all arrive at the same place.
Lithien
http://members.tripod.com/~lithien/Lila2.html
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Budd <rmb29@cornell.edu>
To: moq_discuss@moq.org <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Date: Saturday, October 24, 1998 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: MD Taoist rocks & Zen trees
>The way I understand it (and I could certainly be wrong) but if the master
>tells you a Koan about Frogs and Ponds and splashing sounds, and you start
>intellectually analyzing these images, then you have missed the point of
>what a Koan is supposed to do.
>For example (from Zen Buddhism:the Selected writings of DT Suzuki):
>
>A monk asked,"All things are reducible to the One, but where is the One to
>be reduced?" The master answered, "When I was in the district of Ch'ing I
>had a robe made that weighed seven chin."
>
>Try analyzing that for sense.
>
>Rick
>
>At 11:56 AM 10/23/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>http://members.tripod.com/~lithien/Lila2.html
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: lonewolf <lonewolf@utkux.utcc.utk.edu>
>>To: lithien <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 1:31 PM
>>Subject: MD Taoist rocks & Zen trees
>>
>>
>>hello, donny:
>>
>>you wrote:
>>
>>I would submit that this anicdote is much closer to the ultimate spirit of
>>Taoism and Zen than "becomeing one with all the consciousness of the
>>universe." Zen is not a pantheism. It is not that all is alive and
>>consciouss
>>-- it's overcoming the dualities of life-death and conscious-unconscious.
>>To
>>quote Muneyoshi Yanagi: "In Buddhist discipline, the central problem, the
>>problem of primary importance as well as of greatest urgancy, is how to
>>eradicate man's two most represenative forms of dualism -- the opposition
>>between life and death and the opposition between one's self and other;
>>every
>>effort in Buddhism is directed to the solution of this problem." (*The
>>Unknown
>>Craftsman*)
>>
>>The rock is not alive nor conscious -- and neither am I. We are both
>>emminations from the Void, which is beyond such dualities. But (as Pirsig
>>would say) this is only good from the point of view of the Buddha. In the
>>everyday world on the street we may say that I am living mater and the
rock
>>is
>>not (Bio vs. InOrgPoVs) and that I have a conscious self/personhood/"ego"
>>(SocPoVs) and the rock does not.
>>
>>donny, needless to say my view of zen differs intrinsically from yours.
in
>>"Zen and Japanese Culture" by Daizetz T.Suzuki, there is a much different
>>definition. it says:
>>
>>What is there even before the world came into existence? what the zen
>>master wants to know about is the cosmic landscape prior to the creation
of
>>all things. When is timeless time? Is it no more than an empty concept?
>>the master's answer was:
>>
>> The old pond, ah!
>> A frog jumps in:
>> The water's sound!
>>
>>Let me try to give a little more intelligible account of the master's
koan.
>>An ancient pond is likely to be located in some old temple grounds, filled
>>with many stately trees. Such surroundings add to the tranquility of the
>>unrippled surface of the pond. When this is disturbed by a jumping frog,
>>the disturbance itself enhances the reigning tranquillity; the sound of
the
>>splash reverberates, and the reverberation makes us all the more conscious
>>of the serenity of the whole. However, this consciousness is awakened
only
>>in him whose spirit is really in consonance with the world spirit itself.
>>
>>These images are not figurative representations made us of by the poetic
>>mind, but they directly point to original intuitions, indeed they are
>>intuitions themselves. When the latter are attained, the images become
>>transparent and are immediate expressions of the experience. An intuition
>>in itself, being too intimate, too personal, too immediate, cannot be
>>communicated to others; to do this it calls up images by means of which
it
>>becomes transferable. But to those who have never had such an experience
it
>>is difficult, even impossible, to reach the fact itself merely through
>>images, because in this case images are transformed into ideas or
concepts,
>>and the mind then attempts to give them an intellectual interpretation.
>>
>>As long as we are moving on the surface of consciousness, we can never get
>>away from ratiocination. but the master is not living there as we are, he
>>has passed through the outer crust of consciousness away down into its
>>deepest recesses, into a realm of the unthinkable, into the Unconscious,
>>which is even beyond the unconscious generally conceived by the
>>psychologists.
>>
>>It is by intuition alone that this timelessness of the Unconscious is
truly
>>taken hold of. And this intuitive grasp of reality never takes place when
a
>>world of Emptiness is assumed outside our everyday world of the senses;
for
>>these two worlds are not separate but one. therefore, the master sees
into
>>his Unconscious not through the stillness of the old pond but through the
>>sound stirred up by the jumping frog. Without the sound there is no
seeing
>>into the Unconscious, in which lies the source of creative activities
(DQ?)
>>and upon all artists draw from their inspiration.
>>
>>For me, this is zen and its parallel to MOQ very evident as well.
>>
>>i thank you for making me aware of Bryson's book "A Walk in the Woods". i
>>will read it for i have had similar experiences when walking, as well as
>>with sounds when in meditation.
>>
>>Lithien
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>homepage - http://www.moq.org
>>queries - mailto:moq@moq.org
>>unsubscribe - mailto:majordomo@moq.org with UNSUBSCRIBE MOQ_DISCUSS in
>>body of email
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>homepage - http://www.moq.org
>>queries - mailto:moq@moq.org
>>unsubscribe - mailto:majordomo@moq.org with UNSUBSCRIBE MOQ_DISCUSS in
>>body of email
>>
>
>
>homepage - http://www.moq.org
>queries - mailto:moq@moq.org
>unsubscribe - mailto:majordomo@moq.org with UNSUBSCRIBE MOQ_DISCUSS in
>body of email
>
homepage - http://www.moq.org
queries - mailto:moq@moq.org
unsubscribe - mailto:majordomo@moq.org with UNSUBSCRIBE MOQ_DISCUSS in
body of email
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:02:36 BST