ROGER GIVES FEEDBACK TO RICK ON HIS NEW SORTING OF LEVELS. THEN EXPLAINS THE
LEVELS ARE DEFINED BY THE COMMON VALUES RATHER THAN BY THE PATTERNS
THEMSELVES. THEN UNDERMINES HIS OWN ARGUMENT
Rick:
I agree completely with where you take this thread, up to the point where you
suggest that mind is its own level.
RICK:<<
<The BIOLOGICAL mind. Here these functions are just extensions of the
Biological and are so called the biological mind. And if these functions
are perceived to be the "Intellect" then Society would in fact be built on
Intellect but from the Sociological...>>>>>>>
ROGER WROTE:<<<<<
"The emergent higher level of Intellectual PoV’s includes philosophy,
science,
metaphysics, logic and truth.">>>>>>>>
RICK:<<<<<<<<
These are the type of things refered to by "Intellectual" and they are not
just extensions of the BIOLOGICAL MIND. They all require a society for
their existence. IMHO this is what the confusion is about. Fintan's model
should read:
INTELLECT
SOCIETY
MIND
BIOLOGY
INORGANIC/CHEMICAL
Its the same as Pirsig except that the "Biological Mind" has been given its
own level. >>>>>>>>>>>> SNIP!
This opens the entire September bag-of-worms over the number of levels. At
the time I argued with the side saying that the levels are somewhat arbitrary
(My Betty Crocker MOQ post argued that other recipes for levels actually make
more sense ).
Although I might still be in that camp, or kitchen, I have shifted more toward
Magnus and Glove who argued that there is a beauty and simplicity to the four
levels that shouldn't be messed with lightly. Plus Pirsig himself has stated
that if you change the levels you are no longer talkin' MOQ, you are talkin'
MOR (metaphysics of Roger or Rick).A new member recently wrote something
similar about adding a quantum level.
The reason these extra levels are so appealing is that they work out quite
good at descibing reality. It is tempting to say that photons are on a
different level than rocks, and that genes are on a different level than
bears, let alone ecosystems. These "things" ARE on different levels.
The only way for me to resolve this is to separate the levels of the patterns,
or the THINGS, from the levels of the VALUES defining the patterns at each
level. The VALUES of gravity, electromagnetism, spin, momentum, etc. define
inorgananic things or patterns from the basic quantum level up to the
classical level of planets and stars.
The next level isn't defined by "things" like genes, animals, plants, wings,
minds and ecosystems, it is defined by the VALUES of replication, escaping
inorganic dominance, and consuming other patterns. DNA, pandas, bear brains
and rainforests are emergent features of the common value system. On the other
hand, you can't explain any of these by quantum waveforms -- it doesn't work
at all!
Slaves, kings, politicians, cities, wars, economics, governments and religions
likewise are patterns at widely different levels that can not be described by
the biological values from which they arise. But they can be described as
patterns that emerge from the values of biological entities that team up
individual interests to the benefit of the larger group.
And so on.......
The problem with my argument -- that the levels are set by the values that
define it, and not by the patterns within it -- is that I can find no support
for this in any of Pirsig's writings. In other words, this is again a
metaphysics of Roger. Viscious circle ! Any help or insights Squaddies?
Now, back to your new level of MIND. I think this is part of the biological
level.
Why? Because it is more beautiful that way!
Roger
"The next great awakening of human intellect may well produce a method of
understanding the qualitative content of equations...... Today we cannot see
whether Schrodinger's equation contains frogs, musical composers, or morality
-- or whether it does not." (Richard Feynman)
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