Xcto@aol.com wrote:
>
> The aim of government is not Political Power and you have not made it >true simply by saying it. I can say "Government will not exist forever >with coercion' with equal truth, but it does not make it true.
Bob replies:
'Government' is nothing BUT political power. If the 'government' cannot
force me to do as it wants, there is no 'government.' A cop tries to
pull me over for speeding...I drive on. He can do nothing to me without
the threat of force. In fact, let's say I kill him. The government can
do nothing to me...without force. I don't pay my taxes....the government
can do nothing without the threat of force. I kill, I rob, I rape, I
beat, I set fires....the government can do nothing to me...without
force. There is not one thing the 'government' can make me do without
the threat of force.
>Hitler, Mao, Castro, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot all gained control of
their governments. They did not stand on soapboxes and persuade people
to commit mass murder.
>
> But we do, right? Judas Priest told me to commit suicide, Quake II taught me to shoot up my high school.
>
Bob replies:
I have no idea what this means.
>Since government is based on coercion, it automatically falls in the
>biological level.
>
> This is where I lose you totally.
>All my comments that follow are trying to use your logic...
>Actually it is the interface between society and
> biology. And because it is coercive, it is extremely dangerous...as
>exemplified by the mass murderers I just named.
>Almost all States got their start by one tribe conquering another and
>setting themselves up as rulers (royalty) who exacted tribute (taxes).
>Since they provided no law for the people, people turned to the most
>trusted to settle their disputes...usually clergymen. In this way law
>slowly got its start.
> Because of this, States and law are totally different things. States are
>biological patterns, law is a societal pattern.
>The three basic laws discovered are for protection of life, liberty and
roperty.
>
> As a law...these are Social Level? What is the Intellectual level say >to these laws are subject to?
Bob replies:
What are you saying? I don't understand this at all.
>
>If everyone followed those laws there would be no crime...no
>murder, no slavery, no theft, no battery, no rape. If States followed
>these laws there would be no war, no genocide...95 percent of the
>problems in the world would cease to exist.
>
> If the laws are social, they wouldn't have been created if the biological problems didn't exist. By MOQ definition Social Level is created to constrain the Biological level...
>
Bob replies:
That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Laws are Social level! To constrain
biological level. To support society. The best I can do, really, is
suggest a few books..."The State," be Franz Oppenheimer, and "Our Enemy,
The State," by Albert Jay Nock. Or Ludwig von Mises, Friedrich Hayek,
Murray Rothbard...the simplest and clearest are Richard J. Maybury.
>Intellect is above society. How free can intellect be when it is under
>government control?
>Every special interest group in the world is attempting to gain control
>of the State to force their values on others. Fundamentalists want to
>gain control to outlaw abortion, have mandatory prayer in schools, and
>teach creationism.
>
>Special interest groups are Biological too...They aren't higher than
>government are they??? Then we just need more laws right???? a >bigger government, right???
>
Bob replies:
Special interest groups are indeed biological. What they want are more
laws, not less. The true purpose of law is to say 'no' to all of them.
Not more 'laws,' but one simple one: 'no.'
"We want you to outlaw our competition."
"No."
"We want you to force schools to teach creationism.
"No."
"We want you to take money from people and give it to us."
"No."
>Others want to outlaw their competition to protect
>their wealth. Whoever they are, it is always about using the threat of
>violence to force their values on others.
>Since the State is strictly biological it is utterly, absolutely
>inferior to society. And when it expands, it reaches up and devours law
>and society. Biological values reappear.
>As best as I can figure, States have killed 200 million people in the
>last 100 years.
>And this is the ugliest thing you have ever read here?
>Hm....
> > Bob
>
> It's not that your sentiments are ugly, your misunderstanding of the >MOQ confuses it. Most people here believe that Govt is purely social. >Law is Social. The Constitution is Social. The State is Social Level.
>The basic rights of human life and liberty...ahhh thats Intellectual Level.
Bob replies:
Law (and 'government') are social level. The State is biological. Take a
look at "Braveheart," like I suggested. The English were the
'government' over the Scottish....raping, murdering, stealing,
destroying. Yet they were the 'government.' No, that was the State.
If people are not supposed to murder and steal, then neither can
government. Because 'government' doesn't exist....it's just a bunch of
people....stealing and murdering. When 'government' prevents these
things, it is law and government. When it engages in them, it is the
biological 'State.'
Let's take Saddam Hussein (Irag is almost pure 'State.') He wants to
invade Kuwait to get their oil. He wants to draft troops. Everyone says,
"Sorry, violations of our life, liberty and property. The Kuwaitis, too.
The answer is no."
Three simple laws. If everyone, and that includes 'government' followed
them, almost all problems would disappear. And those three simple laws
means less 'government,' not more.
Bob
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