Dear Xcto,
I agree with your opinions on war from an MOQ perspective to certain
extent, however your comments:
> If someone is threatening you organically, than the intellect has no
say in it...it is kill
> or be killed.
and
> Threaten the Biological and a static latch in the Social level kicks
in with 'kill or be killed.'
for me, don't quite go far enough in explaining the reasons for war and
in particular the "craziness" induced during World War II.
If a nation's reality is being threatened by war I accept that this is
an attack on the biological, although the threat is an indirect one. A
war between nations is a social threat which inadvertently affects the
biological. To say that an organic threat induces a "kill or be
killed" response in an organism is in my opinion correct, however it is
not a statement which I believe explains the response of nations in an
international war like World War II. For me '"kill or be killed" is
purely a biological response; the same response being resident in every
living thing. "Kill or be killed" is the fundamental reason why any
life form evolves.
So even though biological levels are being affected by a war (i.e.
being killed) this doesn't mean that the entire society is reduced to
the biological "Kill or be killed" response. I believe that something
else was at work.
Each level of evolution has it's own defence mechanism. On a
biological level this defence mechanism is inherent in every living
thing, and it is of no consequence what nation or social group these
organisms are placed in if a biological threat is imposed. For
example, if there is a massive world wide food shortage - people will
kill for it regardless of nationality.
If a threat is truly on a biological level I feel that this threat must
transcend all areas of society and intellect. Examples being viruses,
natural disasters, etc. The organism will use all the powers it has to
avoid death in this situation. That is "Kill or be killed."
Social defence mechanisms are however more complicated than a simple
"Kill or be killed", reflecting that fact that it is a higher form over
evolution over the biological. In a war the threatened nation wants to
remain intact, however this is not evidence of a "Kill or be killed"
attitude. A nation will seek the means to end the conflict with
minimal damage to its reality. These "means" are represented in the
armed forces, diplomats, and weapon scientists. All of these are
designed to find a resolution to areas of conflict. I don't believe
that one society forms a "Kill or be killed attitude" against another
society. Society itself is under the control of its leaders who run it
on an intellectual level. I believe that it is only on an intellectual
level that wars between nations are conducted. Yes, they have effects
upon society, and thus the biological. However, the common man is not
responsible for a war like World War II occuring. It is a failure of
leadership. A common man's reaction to a war in which he must fight is
surely intellectual, social, and biological. "Fight for your country!"
is appealing to an individual and what that individual values about his
society. His signing up to fight is not a reaction of a society - but
one man, an organism.
Please respond to moq_discuss@moq.org
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
cc:
Subject: Re: MD Re: Judgement at the Smithsonian.
In a message dated 7/11/99 9:15:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org writes:
>
> Ken; If you think of it this way maybe it would be more palatable
for
> you,.... The 1940's is a time when the whole world had gone insane.
> World war two represents a total collaspe of morality and
civilization.
> The United States simply was not immune to that collapse. The allied
> powers had no magical protection and was quite involved in the same
> crazyness. Listing the atrocities of the enemy justifies nothing. It
> only confuses the issue by making it overly emotional. It whips up a
> blood-lust that makes mass murder seem less objectionable. I mean
how
> irrational is your claim that "there were no innocent civilians"?
This
> is a kind of demonization that takes rational debate off the table.
Of
> course there were innocent civilians in Japan. By that kind of
reasoning
> we ought to kill the family, friends and neighbors of all our
convicted
> murderers, not just the guilty individual. I agree that fire-bombing
an
> entire city has the same effect as an atomic bomb, but that only
means
> that they are equally immoral. (And I doubt that morality has
changed
> significantly in the last 50 years.)
Dear David
Sorry this is delayed...I haven't been reading my email. But I've been
following yours and Ken's little discussion and my own view is
different from
both of yours. My own view is that when someone declares war on you,
than
your fight becomes one of a defense of your reality. In a MOQ sense,
you are
defending your organic, social and intellectual way of life. If
someone is
threatening you organically, than the intellect has no say in it...it
is kill
or be killed. Socially, the intellect can decide if it can "live with"
surrender as someone else suggested. But in a biological sense the MOQ
says
it is moral to win the war over anything else...It's not just a social
Vs
social here with the intellect supposedly deciding the most moral
course.
It sort of goes over one of my favorite personal quotes and I can't
even
recall exactly where it came from, but it comes from a MOQ kind of
viewpoint
-- "A social institution's primary goal is to continue the social
institution's existence. Any other purpose is secondary." It's not
perfect,
but it's a good rule to remember when thinking about social issues.
You both say something about the craziness of the world during W.W.II
and it
still comes back to the above quote. Threaten the Biological and a
static
latch in the Social level kicks in with 'kill or be killed.' There may
be no
other morality in WESTERN!! Civilization (with Japan another example
of
Western expansionism).
Xcto
MOQ Online Homepage - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Unsubscribe - http://www.moq.org/md/index.html
MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
_____________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
MOQ Online Homepage - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Unsubscribe - http://www.moq.org/md/index.html
MD Queries - horse@wasted.demon.nl
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Sat Aug 17 2002 - 16:03:07 BST